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Author Topic: The masculine flaw (and a tangent about magic)  (Read 13094 times)
Bob Richter
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Posts: 324


« on: June 01, 2002, 06:23:45 AM »

The other night, Ulrich took a thrust to the groin (thanks, Wolfen.) Getting hit isn't normally a problem for the Stahlnish tough guy, but take one hit to the groin...

I don't know. Does it seem wrong to anyone else that a groin hit at level 1 is as debilitating as most level 3 injuries? That groin hits are among the most debilitating injuries at any level of injury?

Or that that's just not the case for females?

I've personally come to believe that "the masculine vulnerability" and the supposed steely qualities of female reproductive organs are basically a widely-popular myth that get good play in hollywood because groin shots (against big, strong men) are funny.

But maybe I just need to get Ulrich a steel cup. :)
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2002, 09:02:34 AM »

Having taken a few pretty light whacks to the "boys" in sparring, with a cup on, I'd say that they *are* dehibilitating, at least for the length of a normal bout. Henry VIII wore a steel cup.

The female groin damage is based off of the hips/pelvis found in other damage areas, just more sensitive.

Jake
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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Bailey
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2002, 09:43:20 AM »

I'd find it to be not quite as bad as Jake does.  It's worse in sparring, but general pain isn't that debilitating.  My experience is with fistfighting in general and with sometime boxing at the club.

The only real danger beyond pain is bleeding since there are a lot of blood vessels in that area, with slightly more exposed for men.  Personally I'd think it to be about as debilitating as a blow to the solarplex (yes, I know it's not a real plexus but I use the common terminology).
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Lyrax
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Posts: 268


« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2002, 12:45:21 PM »

Jake: You didn't add any shock penalty to the female groin damage tables. I think you should.
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Lance Meibos
Insanity takes it's toll.  Please have exact change ready.

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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2002, 12:49:54 PM »

I think I should get paid for TROS, but I don't see that happening either.

Ha. No, I'll see if I can fix it, but as I've said, the damage tables really are out of my reach now.

Jake
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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Bob Richter
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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2002, 04:32:11 PM »

Quote from: Jake Norwood
Having taken a few pretty light whacks to the "boys" in sparring, with a cup on, I'd say that they *are* dehibilitating, at least for the length of a normal bout. Henry VIII wore a steel cup.

The female groin damage is based off of the hips/pelvis found in other damage areas, just more sensitive.

Jake


Well, Ulrich isn't exactly Henry VIII. :)

I've taken numerous hits of varous severity to my "boys," and I find that it's rarely debilitating....especially with repetition. The first time it really hurts (but it's hardly the worst thing that can happen to you. Ever had a fingertip slashed open? Now THAT's pain. A massive percentage of the pain-sensative nerve endings are right under the pads of your fingers.) After that, it starts being less and less meaningful to the point where, when a (large, surly, and unattractive) woman was saying she could "take me in a fight" just by kicking me in the groin, I laughed out loud at her.

And it's actually truly amazing what the fight or flight response does to the genitalia: the blood basically drains out of 'em and the brain does its damndest to ignore 'em.

I'd say the genitalia are pretty much the smallest thing to worry about down there, as there are two of the body's largest arteries very close to the surface in that area, and numerous other nasty things.

Furthermore, I'd bet 2 to 1 that being kicked in the crotch acutally hurts a gal more than a guy.

The final point is that defending the genitalia is both easy (easier, actually, than almost any other location) and instinctive.

*sigh* but a steel cup wouldn't be a bad idea. Now I just need to find a place to have one made.
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2002, 08:12:04 PM »

Quote
Ever had a fingertip slashed open? Now THAT's pain.


True that, true that! Happened to my unlucky soul just yesterday. Friggin' computer table, too.

Jake
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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Bankuei
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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2002, 08:51:27 PM »

Our first encounter with that particular bit in RoS is that one of the PC's was chasing a wounded soldier up some stairs to finish him, and fumbled his terrain check...So we start rolling locations, shin, thigh, groin....
The master swordsman quickly learned that footwork is everything...

Other note, although men do suffer the "ow, I use that..." from groin hits, let's not forget that there is no sort of gender equality in most places of Weyrth.  The minor combat disadvantage means nothing compared to the right to own things, or have rights at all....

Chris
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Shadow
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Posts: 19


« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2002, 01:51:24 AM »

On this subject, yes I've taken that shot personally also... it is quited stunning, to say the least, at least for what would be a "minor" or easily ignorable strike in another, less sensitive area.  If you don't want the armored codpiece, a chain hauberk should cover the area to some effect at least...

Regarding females, the "location" is a bit lower and more internally located, so I would say most of the lighter strikes that might... ahem.. inconvenience? one of us males, probably would be more an abdomen or pelvic strike to a female.  It should not be as likely to actually strike a female in the "equivalent" area (unless you are talking maybe a level 3 or 4 wound), probably represented as well as can be without (very unethical)experimentation at least in the system as it stands.

I do agree that if you are really wary of an attack to a specific area, it should be harder for someone to get passed your defenses there.  If you know they are going for one particular area (groin-shot), maybe you should get bonus defense CP or raise the difficulty of the attack, if we really want to go there...

Shadow
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Reprisal
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2002, 02:13:34 AM »

Quote
I think I should get paid for TROS, but I don't see that happening either.


Hehe, no good deed goes unpunished. :)
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"Intelligence in chains loses in lucidity what it gains in intensity." - Albert Camus
Bob Richter
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Posts: 324


« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2002, 02:14:00 AM »

Quote from: Shadow
On this subject, yes I've taken that shot personally also... it is quited stunning, to say the least, at least for what would be a "minor" or easily ignorable strike in another, less sensitive area.  If you don't want the armored codpiece, a chain hauberk should cover the area to some effect at least...

Regarding females, the "location" is a bit lower and more internally located, so I would say most of the lighter strikes that might... ahem.. inconvenience? one of us males, probably would be more an abdomen or pelvic strike to a female.  It should not be as likely to actually strike a female in the "equivalent" area (unless you are talking maybe a level 3 or 4 wound), probably represented as well as can be without (very unethical)experimentation at least in the system as it stands.

I do agree that if you are really wary of an attack to a specific area, it should be harder for someone to get passed your defenses there.  If you know they are going for one particular area (groin-shot), maybe you should get bonus defense CP or raise the difficulty of the attack, if we really want to go there...

Shadow


The saying goes "if something is so good that there's no good reason not to get it, it's unbalanced (in a bad way)."

That applies to female groins, and groin-shots against male opponents as it now stands.

On the whole "rights" issue -- male/female rights are widely variable across Weyrth. In most places, women seem not to be too restricted (at least, I don't see any mention of it,) while in places like Odeon they actually lord over the men with iron fists.

And try telling an Odeon storm-queen she "can't carry that giant bone in here." :)
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So ye wanna go earnin' yer keep with yer sword, and ye think that it can't be too hard...
Shadow
Member

Posts: 19


« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2002, 02:54:59 AM »

It is true that (as far as I have noticed) the only places male/female physiological differences are accounted for in the system is in the groin "weakness" of males, and the superiority of Odeon females over males. (actually I think there was one more race/nationality where there was a male female difference, though what it was eludes me at the moment).  

It could be argued that if we count male groins getting bashed, we should count other physiological differences that would play a (larger) role in combat... otherwise we might have an odd sort of "power gamer" who selects female characters just to avoid this "weakness" (yes this is hillarious, but I can picutre it happening).  Very few games have counted such differences, probably out of fear of alienating rp'ers and being seen as overly chauvanistic).  Pendragon is one that at least in one version addressed this issue; gender differences I think are usually something individual gamemasters deal with in their specific campaigns, if they care to.

If it is found that the "optimal attack location" is the groin (I have not studied the numbers enough to notice this), i would say something needs to be changed.  It is a small target (well relatively speaking, for it is not a place the adjective "small" is generally appreciated... but seriously, small compared to say the skull) and in a location that moves alot in combat, so maybe it should be harder to strike (at least with a foe who is moving/actively defending, rather than caught by surprise).  

Shadow
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Lance D. Allen
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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2002, 05:21:49 AM »

Personally, it seems to me that the throat is the optimal attack location, at least for those going for a kill. When fighting even a lightly armored opponent (as with my early duels between Tiberius and Julianos) I noticed that we both tended to strike for arms, legs, groin and head most often, because both of us were armored on the torso (and due to my arms being lightly armored, he rarely attempted a strike there).

For me, when I attempted a groin shot, it was usually to finish the fight without killing an opponent. (My duel record is kinda shabby, with something like 9 deaths and only three wins.. But 0 kills altogether for me, with that last being a small point of pride.) A shot to the stones is normally, in every real fight I've witnessed (and one or two that I've been in) a quick way to bring things to a halt, at least for a little while.

Perhaps, if a change is in order (which I don't feel there necessarily IS) I'd say raise the amount of Shock, but lower the Pain. The debilitating effects of a strike in that location normally doesn't last all that long, but it is an immediate, painful shock, which can turn the tide of a fight.
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~Lance Allen
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Bankuei
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« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2002, 10:41:06 AM »

I've taken a couple of hits there and managed to keep fighting, but by no means am I trying to acheive that special numbness that you build into your arms and legs for the purpose of taking hits :P  I'm not sure if those hits just didn't land right, or if I was just too amped off adrenaline, but its not always a sure thing.

On the other hand, muay thai fighters use steel cups(plastic ones break, and then they cut...very bad).

Quote
The saying goes "if something is so good that there's no good reason not to get it, it's unbalanced (in a bad way)."


But if you look at some of the weapons, there are some with clear advantages over the others, period.  If you look at sorcery, it is incredibly powerful.  RoS isn't a gamist design, and therefore isn't interested in game balance.  

Chris
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Bob Richter
Member

Posts: 324


« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2002, 12:34:04 AM »

Quote from: Bankuei
I've taken a couple of hits there and managed to keep fighting, but by no means am I trying to acheive that special numbness that you build into your arms and legs for the purpose of taking hits :P  I'm not sure if those hits just didn't land right, or if I was just too amped off adrenaline, but its not always a sure thing.

On the other hand, muay thai fighters use steel cups(plastic ones break, and then they cut...very bad).

Quote
The saying goes "if something is so good that there's no good reason not to get it, it's unbalanced (in a bad way)."


But if you look at some of the weapons, there are some with clear advantages over the others, period.  If you look at sorcery, it is incredibly powerful.  RoS isn't a gamist design, and therefore isn't interested in game balance.  

Chris


Heh. With the way it bends over backwards to balance Sorcery, you'd never know it if it weren't for all of the lip service it paid to the concept -- more on that later (not this post.) :)

I have yet to find a weapon in RoS that is just straight BETTER than another, but even if it were, it would probably be due to similar superiority in real life.

Female groins really aren't all that superior in real life, nor is a groin shot quite that optimum (actually, it's one of the worst shots you can go for, unless it catches an opponent completely off-guard.)
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