DICE MECHANIC - would it work?

[mauriciocabaleiro]

Hello you all.. I´ve been working on a dice mechanic and i would like to have a feedback from anyone interested in helping me improve it. The idea i to first define the mechanics for a world where players will suceed often if they have a good stat or skill for that matter. However theres always the dreadfulls 1,2,3and4 (read bellow) to make them fail and to stop them from being too careless.

Initially the stats will be freeform defined by the players (yes, just like fudge)
Also, please excuse my english writing mistakes, its not my first language.

I dont have much time right now so i will just lay an outline.
The system would work like this:

1 - The stats would range from 1 to 10.
2 - The normal average stat value for humans is 5

You assign dices to the stats. (for what i have read some systems already do that right?)

So, this is the stats graphic:

d4  /   d6  /   d8   [5]  d10   /  d12   /  d20

d4 bad---------------------------0%
d6 mediocre-------------------33%
d8 poor--------------------------50%
5 average----------------------- automatic sucess on easy tasks
d10 fair---------------------------60%
d12 great------------------------66,6%
d20 excellent------------------80*
2d20 legendary (rare)-------98,5%

i.e: all humans have 5 at all stats (usually) and thats why they will always suceed in easy tasks. Cause easy tasks have a dc of 5. 
ROLLS:
You always have to roll equal or over 5. So, you always fail when you roll 1,2,3 or 4. Rolling higher is better because it improves damage. (I will explain this later...)
And as you can see having a bad stat would make impossible to do even a simple task. Unless the gm gives you a +1 because you came out with a good idea or something else. This also aply to the legendary, that has 98,50% chance of suceeding, and in my opnion thats how a legendary character should be.

I have played RPGS for a very, very long time and i read ALLthe posts from here and rpgnet, and YES i know i havent said how stats and skills will work or given a setting idea yet.. Ii will come later.

YES THERE ARE LOTS OF INFO STILL MISSING...be patient grasshopper...

Go easy on me guys. first post ever ok?

[Valamir]

The long term math should work fine.

The short term math will be prone to whiffing in the mid to low range. 

What you may want to consider is to make a bit more of a bell curve out of it:  roll 3 dice and keep the middle value to compare to the DC of 5

[mauriciocabaleiro]

The long term math should work fine.

The short term math will be prone to whiffing in the mid to low range. 

What you may want to consider is to make a bit more of a bell curve out of it:  roll 3 dice and keep the middle value to compare to the DC of 5

Thansk for your reply Valamir.
First, what does prone to whiffing means?

I know that many people like bell curves, and so do i, however i intend to show how better a character really is.

Guide to help:

Q:Why so many dice types?
A: intuitive use. Bigger dices are better than smaller dices. (relative to number of faces of course)
Q: Standard difficult 5? How to increase difficulty?
A: Because its average between 1 to 10, and you increase by decreasing the dice size.
ie: Ok, i know you have great strength (d12) but thats a BIG rock! throw a d10 instead.

How does combat work?
This is a simple outine ok? Dont send me to the fires yet..

You roll your skill dice..lets say that i have big sword d10. So, i have a fair skill using my long sword. I roll 1d10 and get a 7. (i just cannot roll only 1,2,3 or 4 everytime). My opponent is a thief with great dodge skills (d12) and rolls a 5. The difference between them is 3 points. The damage is the weapon menace value multiplyied by this difference.

Weapon menace value. (its a average value considering weapon size, weight, manuverability, edge,quality...)
0 - miminum damage of 1 always. poison darts, needle,etc
1 small   --knifes, short sword,
2 medium --sword, axe
3 large-- long sword, large axe
4 great --claymore, landsknechter,
5 enormous --artefact, anime style weapons

Therefore in the example above my opponent woul take 2x3=6 points of damage. Initially the average character will have statx5 hit points. So that was a good blow..

Now the interesting part. The more i roll more damage i can cause AND i EARN the difference points. So now i have 2 point in my combat pool.. when i have 4 i can buy a dice (d4 only for obvious reasons) and make an action using it.

That way i want to create that combat scenes where i can slam slam slam and then give the mercy blow.. The combat would be very interesting. Perhaps fighting a giant i would defend and defent till i earn enough points to hit him.

The rules are..:

I earn points when my total is higher than my opponents and i lose when it happens the other way.
i can only buy dices one side bigger then my skill/stat or lower.
I can only use this points during the combat scene. They are lost after combat is over.

Thats it..im still thinking about extending this pool for the party.. it would be cool to see the archers/wizards holding the giant and earning points enough to give the barbarian warrior the chance to give it a strike.

Oh.. not finished yet but there will be a system to help hitting..like..if i aim at the chest and miss by 1 shouldnt i hit something else? Just wait to see..

I hope you will like it..
If not..tell me so i can improve it..

[Mcrow]

just for a baseline, what die type is considered average?


whiffing means missing.

[Hereward The Wake]

I like the idea and it has gotten me thinking on it along the lines of my post on dice mechanics.

I am also interested on what the average stat (5) would roll?

JW

[Valamir]

whiffing means missing.

More precisely it means missing / failing when you'd expect to succeed.

So someone is "great" at something and an "easy" task is a 5.  Well if I'm a great piano player and I'm playing an easy piece I'm going to expect to play it well.  But there's still a 1 in 3 chance that I'm going fail in your system.  That's a pretty high rate of failure for a "great" person to fail at something "easy".  So when the reality of the math doesn't match the expectation of the description failures become discouraging rather than dramatically interesting...we call that situation a "whiff"*

Bell curves are one way to reduce this by making you less likely to roll an extreme number and more likely to do as well as you'd expect.  On a d12 you'd expect to roll a 6 or a 7.  That's good enough to succeed on an easy task.  So increasing the likelyhood of getting the result you'd expect is a way (one way) to mitigate whiffing.

Another way is to increase the number of rolls you make...to make each roll represent something smaller.  The average result of the series of rolls will then trend towards the expected result over time.  This is actually the approach taken by D&D.  Each individual to-hit roll is highly prone to whiffing.  But since the hitpoint system ensures you'll need to make a ton of to-hit rolls the results average out in the end.  Ultimately this will also get you a bell curve and is the reason why I've claimed that D&D combat is pretty much just a dice pool system where you roll the dice one at a time.

*the term "whiff" derives from sports where you are striking a ball with a bat or club...like baseball, or golf, or cricket.  You gear up for a big swing....and then disappointingly miss the ball entirely...you "whiffed".  Similar feeling in an RPG where you gear up for a great dramatic action...and then fail the roll utterly...you "whiffed".

[Callan S.]

I'd be careful about making that a concern here though - playing an easy piece of music? Players should be playing a hard piece of music! They should be running into conflict - playing an easy piece of music isn't a great dramatic action to whiff anyway.

Rather than making it easier to consistantly pass easy tasks, perhaps ensuring the tough stuff just keeps happening?

Some people like the phrase 'Say yes or roll'. Pump it up a notch 'Say yes or make a damn hard roll! No in between!'. heh.

[mauriciocabaleiro]

Oh my... Thanks all four of you for giving me a feedback on this mechanics.
Hell, maybe i can turn it into something usefull...That said let me answer to your questions...

just for a baseline, what die type is considered average?

None..the average is a value, a number..5.  You always suceed when you have to do a easy task. But, if the GM tells you to make a roll then you have to roll a d8. (Because it has a 50% chance.)

When you dont have a skill stat or anything you roll one dice smaller.. so according to the stats graphic if you have not listed one stat on your sheet you have 5 at it. And if you have to test it (when its not an anutomatic sucess) you roll a d8.

I like the idea and it has gotten me thinking on it along the lines of my post on dice mechanics.

I am also interested on what the average stat (5) would roll?

I find great that you got interested.. When you have to roll you roll a d8. (take a look at the answer above ok?)


quote author=Callan S. link=topic=23523.msg231719#msg231719 date=1174084736]
I'd be careful about making that a concern here though - playing an easy piece of music? Players should be playing a hard piece of music! They should be running into conflict - playing an easy piece of music isn't a great dramatic action to whiff anyway.

Rather than making it easier to consistantly pass easy tasks, perhaps ensuring the tough stuff just keeps happening?

Some people like the phrase 'Say yes or roll'. Pump it up a notch 'Say yes or make a damn hard roll! No in between!'. heh.
[/quote]

whiffing means missing.

More precisely it means missing / failing when you'd expect to succeed.

So someone is "great" at something and an "easy" task is a 5.  Well if I'm a great piano player and I'm playing an easy piece I'm going to expect to play it well.  But there's still a 1 in 3 chance that I'm going fail in your system.  That's a pretty high rate of failure for a "great" person to fail at something "easy".  So when the reality of the math doesn't match the expectation of the description failures become discouraging rather than dramatically interesting...we call that situation a "whiff"*

Bell curves are one way to reduce this by making you less likely to roll an extreme number and more likely to do as well as you'd expect.  On a d12 you'd expect to roll a 6 or a 7.  That's good enough to succeed on an easy task.  So increasing the likelyhood of getting the result you'd expect is a way (one way) to mitigate whiffing.

Another way is to increase the number of rolls you make...to make each roll represent something smaller.  The average result of the series of rolls will then trend towards the expected result over time.  This is actually the approach taken by D&D.  Each individual to-hit roll is highly prone to whiffing.  But since the hitpoint system ensures you'll need to make a ton of to-hit rolls the results average out in the end.  Ultimately this will also get you a bell curve and is the reason why I've claimed that D&D combat is pretty much just a dice pool system where you roll the dice one at a time.

*the term "whiff" derives from sports where you are striking a ball with a bat or club...like baseball, or golf, or cricket.  You gear up for a big swing....and then disappointingly miss the ball entirely...you "whiffed".  Similar feeling in an RPG where you gear up for a great dramatic action...and then fail the roll utterly...you "whiffed".

This is the answer to both posts above...

True.. but what i want for this system its to give the players a bit of fear. How? Because they wont have a whole bunch of stats or skills and etc on their sheet. So, when they're in trouble they wont do like always happen, that is;

John, the barbarian: So, a ice giant is before me right? Well, just give me a minute there must be something here i can use....(this always happen)

I expect them to feel a bit naked..without much to rely on and so forcing them to use their criativity. (I hope this will help A LOT when running a horror campaign!!)

AND... i want players to feel that they can do what they want.. but not all the time..(i dont want super-heroes, at least not all the time..) Even a great piano player will miss..because its a GREAT play..it should be difficult.

However i think its easy to dont make it so hard.. The GM can just say:
- Ok, Stu (the piano player) its you now.. roll 3 sucesses to play it all right. Stu would roll 3 d12, and he only needs to roll over 4.

And in combat situations i think the rule where you earn points to buy dices would help compensate for the difficulty. The players would need to develop strategies and i DESIRE this to improve team play..
ie:
The archer shooting the giant from far away would earn points for the barbarian to attack and maybe do something else..Imagine the arrows stealing time from the giant, the arrows get in his way and thus give the barbarian an opening.


OK, thats it folks..please keep bugging me about my ideas.. i dont mind..if its a crap just say its a crap.. your feedback is very important to me..
What about the dices you can buy? Did you guys like that?

Oh..if anyone has an idea about how i can work the relation between stats and skills...please drop a line..
bye..

[Simon C]

The dice mechanic you're suggesting is solid, but, as suggested above, it leads to a pretty high rate of failure for average tasks.  That's ok though.  You might want to check out "Savage Worlds" for a similar sort of system.  It sounds like you're going for quite different things though.  In Savage Worlds, character succeed quite often, and they are capable of quite heroic stuff.  You can get the test drive rules for free (the best price of all!)  at this URL: http://www.peginc.com/Games/Savage%20Worlds/Savage%20Worlds.htm

[mauriciocabaleiro]

The dice mechanic you're suggesting is solid, but, as suggested above, it leads to a pretty high rate of failure for average tasks.  That's ok though.  You might want to check out "Savage Worlds" for a similar sort of system.  It sounds like you're going for quite different things though.  In Savage Worlds, character succeed quite often, and they are capable of quite heroic stuff.  You can get the test drive rules for free (the best price of all!)  at this URL: http://www.peginc.com/Games/Savage%20Worlds/Savage%20Worlds.htm

Thanks for the tip..im going to check it out.. I also heard that Ironclaw is similar? Anyone knows where to take a look at it?

Other than that im working on the system and taking all your posts and questions in consideration..ill post more on monday and try to give you guys something new to ccrunch about it..

Thanks for the feedbacks...

[mauriciocabaleiro]

The dice mechanic you're suggesting is solid, but, as suggested above, it leads to a pretty high rate of failure for average tasks.  That's ok though.  You might want to check out "Savage Worlds" for a similar sort of system.  It sounds like you're going for quite different things though.  In Savage Worlds, character succeed quite often, and they are capable of quite heroic stuff.  You can get the test drive rules for free (the best price of all!)  at this URL: http://www.peginc.com/Games/Savage%20Worlds/Savage%20Worlds.htm

Thanks for the tip..im going to check it out.. I also heard that Ironclaw is similar? Anyone knows where to take a look at it?

Other than that im working on the system and taking all your posts and questions in consideration..ill post more on monday and try to give you guys something new to ccrunch about it..

Thanks for the feedbacks...

[mauriciocabaleiro]

d4  /   d6  /   d8   [5]  d10   /  d12   /  d20

d4 bad---------------------------0%
d6 mediocre-------------------33%
d8 poor--------------------------50%
5 average----------------------- automatic sucess on easy tasks
d10 fair---------------------------60%
d12 great------------------------66,6%
d20 excellent------------------80*
2d20 legendary (rare)-------98,5%

i.e: all humans have 5 at all stats (usually) and thats why they will always suceed in easy tasks. Cause easy tasks have a dc of 5. 
ROLLS:
You always have to roll equal or over 5. So, you always fail when you roll 1,2,3 or 4. Rolling higher is better because it improves damage. (I will explain this later...)
And as you can see having a bad stat would make impossible to do even a simple task. Unless the gm gives you a +1 because you came out with a good idea or something else. This also aply to the legendary, that has 98,50% chance of suceeding, and in my opnion thats how a legendary character should be.

Im back with some improvements.. I decided to use the rule of open dice. This will allow a character with a d4 in his stats to have a 25% chance of suceeding. If he rolls 4 since thats the highest number on the dice he will reroll it and even getting the lowest (1) he will have a total of 5, just enough for suceeding in a commom task.

d4 bad---------------------------25%(if he rolls 4, because its critical)
d6 mediocre-------------------33%
d8 poor--------------------------50%
5 average----------------------- automatic sucess on easy tasks
d10 fair---------------------------60%
d12 great------------------------66,6%
d20 excellent------------------80*
2d20 legendary (rare)-------98,5%
That way the probabilities will look better: (i guess...give me you opnions)

I was thinking in change the difficult to 4 (like savage worlds) but keeping the d20, however the character would have a very good chance to suceed in their tasks..the d8 which is my average right now would have a 62,5% chance of suceeding.

Since im going after a feeling that a initial character may or may not suceed (50%) they would have to use the d6, but that would not leave much room for using lower dices..there is only the d4 under..

With the d8 as 50% i can allow a player to lower his stat do d6 or d4..in description words it means if im a normal person, im weak with a d6 or very weak with a d4. In my opnion more option in the stats would allow better character descriptions..

LONG TASK RULE:

Another idea..when performing long actions such as playing a piano play or holding up a closing door that is a giant slab of rock this would be the procedure:

When playing the piano, lets say that the character is a excellent piano player(d20).. Having a d20 is 3 steps away from the average 5. (d10 is 1 step, d12 is 2...) The GM may call him to roll a long action roll.. That way he will roll 3 d20s... If he gets one sucess (rolling over 4) he played it at a fair level (d10), if he gets 2 sucesses he played at a great level.. if he scores 3 he did it as a excellent piano player  should...)

About the rock example: lets say that while holding the door for 2 turns (to allow his party members chance to escape) the warrior who has a great strength (d12) rolls 2 dices and scores 7 and 11. The GM says that the rock is so heavy the difficult is 7. He would have hold it for 2 turns, in the first he hold it well..in the second he even managed to push it up a bit (because he scored over 7)

Well thats it..

Now, 2 questions for you guys...
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1- What do you think its better, increasing the difficult number or rolling dices lower than yours as difficult increases?

Lets say i have fair strength d10. If i try to hold something heavier..lets say a great rock d12 i must roll a d8 instead. Because the rock is one dice higher.
I would like to use dices to make this work but i think increasing the number is more easy to understand and use..
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2- And, im thinking about this.. when performing long actions this would aplly:

I can only maintain my stat dice a numer of turns equal to my step from average. (so a d12 can hold a rock for 2 turns..)
After exceeding that number of turns my stat dice goes down one step (after 2 turns i must try to hold it rolling a d10)
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What you guys think? Post feedbacks please...

[mauriciocabaleiro]

Common guys.. Where are you? Post some feedbacks and lets get this mechanic working smoothly...

Im trying to solve the issue about the relation between stats and skills..havent come to a final solution yet. If anyone has some idea drop a line please..

Im also wondering about the setting.. Im thinking in something a bit dark, where the players can be heroes but its a tough world. Maybe a planet slowly freezing to death because of its dying sun, or maybe a huge moon that has a slow orbit finally gets between the planet and the sun. Perhaps it moves so slow that it begins with an eclipse and it will take years for it to end. That way the world slowly gets dark and cold.. The days would be shorter, till the time there would be a total eclipse.

I really dont know yet..this isnt even a half idea.. Feel free to contribute..
bye..

[Hereward The Wake]

I like the idea of adjusting up and down the dice rolled based on difficulty of task attempted and as I mentioned before has given me food for thought on my system.
I am not great expert of mechanics, so can really give you more input on that side of things right now.

JW

[mauriciocabaleiro]

Hi JW,

i read you post and im thinking on how about help you with your mechanics. Why dont you give a try at the resource pool for buying dices that i mentioned? You could say that a dodge need a d6, while an attack costs a d4, and an even more powerfull maneuver would cost more...

Or forget abou the dice and just work on earning points to buy actions, special effects, etc.

I also prefer changing the dice type..but more and more im getting to convince myself that in gameplay it may get confuse..everytime players would need to roll different dices for the same stat or skill...

If simple is better (or at least, less confusing) im going to keep the difficult number option..

If you need anyhelp with your mechanics just ask me..i dig creating mechanics and testing them..