Remarkable Player Apathy: Is it just me?

[Valamir]

Now see, that's just very odd to me.  Most groups I've gamed with regularly in my life (i.e. all but 1) had a strict rule forbidding snacks and beverages at the table at all, on the grounds of "less time crunching and slurping, more time paying attention and playing".

The 1 group that violated this tenant tended to play many hours straight with little being accomplished and had virtually no depth to either plot or characterization.  My conclusion was:  allow in 1 distraction and it just snowballs from there.

Walt and Paul...were you being tongue in cheek, or are beverages really that instrumental in your games?

[Paul Czege]

Most groups I've gamed with regularly in my life (i.e. all but 1) had a strict rule forbidding snacks and beverages at the table at all...

I hear this is how it is when Jeremy Irons runs sessions of CoC...he won't have it otherwise.

[Scratchware]

That may be the case for people who can't pay attention. But we can't concentrate unless we have snacks. First of all, we don't slurp! Who can eat and drink like that? It is so sick! We just have some pizza and if we are lucky, we get some pepsi. I don't see how this can be disrupting gameplay. The times we don't have food, in fact, the complaining that we don't have food disrupts more than if we do.

[Eric J.]

A few things:

Pepsi dehydrates you, not the inverse.

We had 3 freaking pizza's!

There were 5 people + my 7-year old brother and sister.

There were only 4 pepsis so I forewent one.

The pepsi belonged to our Peruian only spanish-speaking housekeeper,
who gives without any hesitation and won't accept any money.

I didn't want to give out pepsi, but you kind of forced me.

I am still looking for a way to pay her back.

We had other things to drink.

My house is the spot for RPGs almost every week.  We have 9 pizzas for the month.  If we eat 4, then we only have enough for one more session.  If we eat 3, we have enough for 2 more sessions.  I cannot supply infinite pop, and do not expect Scratchare to do so.

Scratchware; my brother probably thinks the same thing about you.  You are the one who, as a cleric-mage (second lowest possible HP using the basic classes), charged 3 hobgoblins without using spells.  No, Doug did talk out of turn.  Now we can get into disscusion about the aspect of Ron's essay dealing with personal problems...

I'm sorry, but this hits a personal issue that I won't discuss here.  I have no money.  I try to resolve them fairly, without favoring any one, but this only reinforces the suggestion to get another group...  This brings up a concept that I must start another tread on.  I try not to make judgement based upon personal problems.  In fact, I gave the newbie the most experience this session.

[Scratchware]

Eric, Jesse is extremely intelligent. He is by far the best "newbie" we have ever had in our group. His whitty comments come from no-where and blow us away... I don't know how he does it.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Criminy. Are we really discussing soda at the gaming table?

To bring this (slightly) back to topic, the whole soda discussion (which baffles me) is a good representation of the lack of any kind of social contract. Players and GMs should all know before a game what's expected of them, and go so far as to put it down in writing if they have to. When thinking about this, the following questions are useful:

Gameplay questions
Who is responsible for running the game? Is it the same person every week?
Does that person decide the game to play, or does the group as a whole, or do we decide a different way?
Do we want long campaigns, or short ones, or single-session games, or does it matter?

Participation questions
Do we want games where the majority of decision making power is in the hands of the GM, or in the hands of everyone?
What should each player bring to the game each week?

Metagame questions
Do we eat at the game? If so, do we eat during, before, or after the game, or do we take a break in the middle?
Who is responsible for food? Does everyone chip in, or is one person responsible for it?
Same question, but for drinks.
How much out-of-game chit-chat is allowed? Do we set aside time before the game, or can people can during the game, and if so, how much?

There's tons more questions that can obviously be asked, but there's a start. It might not be a bad idea for Pyron's group to sit down and go through these.

As a last note, and a side one, I think the idea that the host for the game (the person whose house you're playing at) has to provide drinks and food is fucking reprehensible - especially when you're in high school and broke. Chip in, people, or in an ideal world, buy your host some drinks and food, especially if they're also the GM - they're doing a lot of work.

[Eric J.]

They try.  I've provided 3 pepsis in many sessions in the past.  However, you are right.  I am a strong disbeliever in "implied rules" as I veiw that as an oxy-moron.  I will, next session create a document for a social contract, stating your ideas and others. (That is, if we have another session.) Oh, and Scratchware is right (he basically quoted me).  One of Jessie's sayings: "Life is like a bowl of peaches.  It's yellow and slimey, and goes bad if you leave it on the counter too long."

[Le Joueur]

Pepsi dehydrates you, not the inverse.

The myth that caffeine in soda dehydrates is unfounded, there's more than enough water in the soda to make up for it.  (Just don't take caffeine tablets without drinking something, that will dehydrate you a little.)

Fang Langford

p. s. And the inverse is you dehydrating Pepsi.

[Scratchware]

Um.. HAHA! It is the freaking carbonation. Not the caffiene.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Earlier, I was very calm. Now, as a moderator, I ask you one more time to cease any discussion of the merits of soda.

[Walt Freitag]

Most groups I've gamed with regularly in my life (i.e. all but 1) had a strict rule forbidding snacks and beverages at the table at all, on the grounds of "less time crunching and slurping, more time paying attention and playing".

Snacks and soft drinks at the table are one thing; water is another. It's a nonessentials vs. essentials comparison. I mean, players would also spend more time paying attention if they were forbidden bathroom breaks or for that matter all that annoying constant breathing, but quality of play wouldn't benefit. There's a reason that when you see top executives or consultants or board members or negotiators around a conference table they always have pitchers of water right there on the table (or at least, on a nearby side table).

Sure I take this more seriously than most, probably because of my experience with 48-hour-long LARPs. We used to have to schedule downtime in the rules to force people to eat and drink, or else they'd dehydrate themselves to the point of disorientation. Tabletop games don't usually have this problem, but when you start talking about 10 or 12-hour sessions, some of the same issues apply.

- Walt

[Eric J.]

There is another problem.  I have a friend who we've tried playing RPGs with.  Unfortinitelley, he is a super-gamist.  I know that you shouldn't label people using GNS, but if you knew this person, you would make an exception.  The problem is that he is not just a gamist; he is well... Evil.  He enjoys killing things as well as having, what he would call competition, with the other players.  He brags about his equipment before we play (I enjoy relieving it every time I'm a fellow player with him).  I am seriously thinking about excluding him.  I guess I can be his friend without role-playing with him. Can't I?

Edit: And yes Scratchware, this isn't you.  This is Cody.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

"I guess I can be his friend without role-playing with him. Can't I?"

Bam! There it is. THERE it is. I knew if we just talked things over, and chatted, and all that, that sooner or later it would appear.

Yes, you can. Friendships that only exist so that the role-playing can occur are not friendships at all; they are all sorts of other things, none of them good.

In other words: "You have to play like I want you to or I won't be your friend any more."  Or, "You have to treat me like a friend or I won't be in your group." Both of these are blackmail, and neither leads to a functional social situation for the actual play. In order to play, one is accepting shitty and fun-less play.

Now, I'm not saying you are in this situation. But I'm describing it in its worst form so that you can see where even a glimmer of "friend?" "fellow role-player?" ambiguity can go, if left unresolved.

Basically - be friends with people you like and trust. Role-play with the people you enjoy role-playing with. You won't be role-playing with all your friends. Some of the people you role-play with won't be your very best friends. But do not, not let anyone use uncertainty about friendship be a lever in a game-play power struggle, or use cooperation/rebellion in a role-playing situation be a lever in a friendship.

Best,
Ron

[Bankuei]

Sorry I missed out on some of this, but to bring back some important points:

4: I should try to communicate better with my players.
I say: I've tried. They've been unresponsive, but I'll try harder.

Communication is a tricky issue.  It's a matter of 1) listening and trying to make clear what someone else is telling you, and 2) making what you're saying clear to someone else.  But, do realize, I put them in that order for a reason.

"We want to play Star Wars!" = "We want to kick ass, you can throw reality out the door."  The question you should ask yourself whenever you are setting up a scene is, "Is this something I would see in a Star Wars movie?"  If the answer is no, then you need to rethink it.  Trapped in a library in zero G? Boring.  Fight scene in a library in zero G? Fun.

He has an arrogant attitude towards me even though he is 3 years younger and is a worse roleplayer than me.

Arrogance, or most attitudes that aren't group-friendly are bad in anyone.  Age and ability are irrelevant, period.  Ego divides groups all aspects, and part of that is taking the "I'm better than you" attitude in everything.  You're really either fun to play with, or you're not.  

I know folks who are awesome roleplayers who I'd never play with, ever. I know folks who are great people, I get along with great, but I wouldn't play with either.  This attitude from any players about judgement is pretty immature and tends to cause problems.  I think Ron's said it before; Most "gaming" problems are just people problems.

Chris

[Eric J.]

I must laugh at this, just a little.  It is that you missuderstand Scratchware.  In our world, 3 years is quite much, and their are other aspects.  He's my little brother.   I can't get a learner's permit, but in less than a month, Scratchware will be able to drive a car by himself.  Scratchware is shorter than my little brother.  My little brother is empathetic but competetive, especially with Scratchware.  Scratchware tends to take this as hostillity.  I bang my head on the desk, as this only proved that Ron's right (is he ever not?) and that I better look for a new gaming group...