Blood in the Thickets

[Eric Provost]

Jason,

You mean something like a "wiley" factor?  So, Mr Field Mouse, representing the bottom of the food chain, starts the game off with the greatest of wiles while Mr Bear, representing the top o' the food chain, starts off with the least of wiles.  Therefore Mr Mouse will freqeuntly be able to outsmart Mr. Bear.  Thus balancing the obvous superiority of Bear in a who's-gonna-eat-who contest.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

But what I really wanna talk about is; should Mr Mouse ever dare dream of finding his way to the top of the social ladder?

[Nathan Herrold]

Hey Eric!
yeah, i'm not real sure. 
my original thought was to give smaller animals more FEAR, and FEAR would be a good thing, a resource, but that's kinda went by the wayside.  killing another animal will not be an easy task, i mean these animals are a bit smarter than animals without pants.  they can pack "heat", or gang up on a larger creature., and heck, just generally "plan" better.
yeah, i'm not sure how much the Predator/Prey thing will be tied into further game mechanics.  i sort of see, as a last resort, an animal eating one of it's own species.  hey, ya gotta feed the kids somehow.   
it's gonna be a difficult balancing act to get the social commentary right, and to get the flavor for the source material right.  mirroring nature and mirroring story.  tough.
as of now, i'd say Mr. Mouse wil have a very hard time at that. 
this is my first game, so the thought process is a bit new and difficult. 
i'm thinking that if i want the threat of players eating other players, there should be an incentive to do so. 
i've got lots of ideas, i just hope a few of them are good ones.
Eric, i'd go with the lemur all the way. 

[Nathan Herrold]

One thing I suggested privately was to have a sort of reverse food chain that afforded some sort fo increasing benefit the more tasty you are.  You know how Brer Rabbit is weak and delicious but can trick the guys who want to murder him into pretty much anything?  That sort of thing, maybe with intelligence or social influence or debts owed them or something.  So if you play a fox, you can kill dudes, but you're dumb as a post, perhaps.

Damn you Morningstar, whatever happened to non-disclosure?  it seems my "super secret" emails are indeed not-so secretive!   My suspicions concerning Jason's alliances are proving themselves true and rightfully founded.  Just how long until WoTC prys my unwilling soul from my body? 
     Yeah, i don't nessarily want to say that all small creatures are smarter than bigger creatures.    some animals should just be "food-wearing-pants".  I don't see size as being a huge issue, but who knows, maybe it is?  Predators are kinda smartand crafty, but I see the connection to the fable trope that has the "smaller animal outwitting his larger(dumber)predator".  look, i acknowledge it, but i'm not sure i wanna go that route.  I think i see this game a bit as more bloody and cut throat, than Jason does?  But yeah, it still has to be fun.  I've only eaten one player's character and let me tell you, it was fun!  I then wore his skull as a belt buckle. 
     There's alot that's still up in the air, i mean this is First Thoughts.

[Nathan Herrold]

it's funny, i'm repling to myself(much like most conversations go).  anyhoo...this week i had another sort of idea when i was walking home(or was it to?)work. 
i've been thinking about what makes a society, and more so what do I THINK makes a society.  basicly trying to sum up my philosophy on this whole "people" nonsense.  a song popped into my head and it goes alittle something like this..."what's society built on?  what's society built on?  it's built on bluff.  built on bluff.  built on trust." 
so, from that i started thinking about games that i liked that involved some bluffing.  "Master Builder" is a game i'm pretty good at.  it involves building a castle wall, but you have to, at times bluff what pieces you wanta bring out.  anyway, i like this game.  and ya know, there aren't really alot of role-playing games that do the whole "bluffing other players thing".  so i think i got a piece of something here. 
i also was thinking about Trust, and sort of how untrusting would be a positive if ya didn't wanta be eaten.  i guess the Mountain Witch has a Trust mechanic, but never playing it, i can only guess what it's like.  well, my idea is that players will have resources to kind of build other players Trust...like in order for me to one day or another eat you, i have to babysit your kids, or wash your car, or something like that, befriend myself to you. 
i so don't want this game to be about little furry serial killers...it's about my take on society, except with more cannibalism, and little tiny jackets.
so, once Trust is worn down, sorta like Hit Points, only then can ya go in for the kill?(OR maybe once TRUST is built up?)  and you'd wear down other players Trust(hmm...maybe it should be Distrust?)by using the resources you have, or somehow thru the game enviroment...which i don't know how yet.
but i'd love a role playing game that would involve bluffing other players.


 

[Nathan Herrold]

oh, and i'm thinking that Species Name will be like a Proper Last Name...so you could maybe differentiate between Bill Badger and Bob Badger(for those that like alliteration...LIKE ME!).

[Jason Morningstar]

It sounds like you're angling for a more competitive game.  I wonder if you've played Werewolf/Mafia?  That came to mind right away.  The way trust is distributed in The Mountain Witch is elegant and could easily be emulated.  It'd be interesting if there was a dual advantage/danger to increasing trust in a predatory species.  Maybe there's a threshold past which you become fair game.

I'm still not seeing any reason to play a particular species.  Why not just play the top of the food chain?

[Nathan Herrold]

predators maybe have more Trust or less Distrust, depending on how the mechanic works out.  maybe it's tiered?  like between species or something.  um...say a Mouse who's next Predator in line is a Fox, is really distrusting of the Owl, who's two tiers above it?  i don't know Jason.
do you still like the smarter=smaller?  they are kinda smarter in a way...i guess.  distrusting is probable smart! 

[Jason Morningstar]

I'd really like to see your vision for this in more detail, because I'm having a hard time understanding where you want to go with it. 

Social commentary on human society, with cannibalism and cute little jackets - got it.  That's solid gold right there.  Beyond that?  Maybe describe your dream session for me - write out a scene you'd love to see take place.

[Nathan Herrold]

okay, well here's the first scene that popped into my head.
a father comes home(mr. mouse)to find out his son hasn't returned from school.  this is of course upsetting, so he goes on a search for him.  maybe he goes to the school first, maybe he goes first to a friend to get advice or help. 

[Jason Morningstar]

How about a scene with some conflict?  What happens when the mouse finds out what happened to his son?  Describe that. 

[Nathan Herrold]

with that as my inital set-up, it'd be cool if he'd, after getting a seach party of his closest friends together, he sort of narrows his possible location down to one house in particular.  apon bursting in, and loudly demanding to see the owner, he's hurriedly escorted by the bulter into the dining hall, where they're eating his son, as he's asking in his loudest, resounding voice "Where Is My Son!".  maybe he see's his little red cap on a seat, or a crumpled up pile of his clothing, near the fire.  maybe a couple school books, currently burning in the fire.

[Jason Morningstar]

OK, that's all very flavorful.  Then what happens?  Pretend this is the best gaming story ever and it happened last night and you want to tell me every detail.  What happened?  Who did what to who?  How?  Did you roll dice or flip cards?  Was there a big fight?  Did he just turn around and leave? 

[Nathan Herrold]

I hope it's okay me posting under this old topic, it's still the same game, and i'm still having thoughts, oddly not some of the same ones i've had previously.
So...how do i make rules for people, connect to rules for story?
Right now i have an idea that Prey and Predator will have the same attributes, only inverted.
Those two attributes are Fear and Hunger.  Prey will have less Fear more Hunger, Predators the opposite.  These numbers will be equal.  Like the Prey's Hunger will be equal to the Predator's Fear.  Players will be able to effect each other's attributes...i'm thinking thru the use of game-specific cards. 
I'm not sure how to tie in this mechanical idea with another idea i have, which is that by creating a story, a map of the town will be made.  It'll be a visual reminder of what's happened so far, and also when the game is over, you'll be able to see kinda, everything that happened. 
I also had idea for each player having a Duty and a Dream, again opposing each other.  Maybe each turn players must choose whether to work at thier Duty or their Dream.  This choice will effect other players, because players Dreams and Duties are tied together.  I'm not sure how the last bit'll work out.  I'm thinking it may be neat to have Dreams that are unattached, or maybe the nature of Dreams somehow detaches or takes away from other aspects of play. 
Both your Dreams and Dutie are needed for survival.
Also, do i need to give particular species inside each class(Prey, Predator)something special? 
Animals are really just a stand in for people.

[Nathan Herrold]

...and also, what would make you not so upset at being eaten?
that's kind of a whole nother can of worms. 
how do i reward it enough that the fear of it is still quite possible, but punish players for abusing it?

[Marshall Burns]

I love this whole concept.

You know what it reminds me of more than anything else?  The Threepenny Opera by Kurt Weill and Bertolt Brecht, a dark socialist cabaret musical about class struggles and how they force people into horrible behavior.  The protagonist was a murderous thief named MacHeath, alias Mack the Knife.  At one point, he and his wife sing a song called (in English) "What Keeps Mankind Alive" that basically sums up the theme of the play.  Here's some pieces of it:

MacHeath:"You gentlemen who think you have a mission
To purge us of the Seven Deadly Sins
had better first sort out the basic food position,
then start your preaching; that's where it all begins.
...
"However much you twist, or whatever lies you tell,
food is the first thing; morals follow on."

(He is interrupted by a voice off stage that blurts out the question, "What keeps mankind alive?")

MacHeath:"What keeps mankind alive?
The fact that millions are daily tortured, stifled, punished, silenced, and oppressed!
Mankind can keep alive thanks to his brilliance
for keeping his humanity repressed."

Chorus:"So for once you must try to face the facts:
Mankind is kept alive by bestial acts!"

This whole thing is done to this weird cabaret/jazz music that's simultaneously cheery and unsettlingly off-kilter.

I bring this up because it looks like you're working with similar themes, and also an analogous way of presenting them--that is, voicing horrible things through a form (cheery music in the play, a children's tale in your game) that is, on the surface, innocuous, but turns out to be a bit of a Trojan horse (that was the driving concept in most of the Weill/Brecht collaborations).

-Marshall