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275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4285 Members Latest Member: - Jason DAngelo Most online today: 135 - most online ever: 429 (November 03, 2007, 04:35:43 AM)
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Author Topic: [Grey Ranks] Another playtest  (Read 11291 times)
Ron Edwards
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« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2007, 12:46:25 PM »

Hi Jason,

We are perfectly OK with (a) choosing one of the two available dice and (b) adjusting it up or down at that time. That's not the problem.

The problem concerns the times when we must make two adjustments in those few instances when we choose the Reputation die and also want to upgrade it via the Reputation progression. Therefore a 15 or 17 year old character must now adjust twice, once for age, and once for the upgrade. The question concerns the order in which to do those two things.

Example 1

Let's say a character is 15 and in, say, a Mission scene. The player chooses the Reputation die, which, as it stands on his sheet, is a d4.

1. We know it upgrades by one size because the character is 15.

2. The player wants to check his first box for the Reputation progression, to d6.

If #1 goes first, then the die is upgraded from d4 to d6, then is "transformed" to a d6; i.e., the player gets to check the box. Note that checking the box has had no mechanical effect.

If #2 goes first, then the die is transformed from d4 to d6 due to the Reputation, then is upgraded further to d8 due to the age.

Example 2

The character is 17 and has checked off both the d6 and the d8 boxes for a given Reputation. He is in a Personal scene and decides to use the Reputation die, currently sitting there as a d4.

1. We know that it's upgraded by one size for age.

2. We know that it's transformed to a d10 because he's going for the gusto and choosing to mark the d10 box.

If #1 goes first, then it's upgraded to a d6, and then transformed into a d10.

If #2 goes first, then it's transformed into a d10, and then upgraded into a d12.

I could go on with lots more examples, but the general pattern is that which is chosen to go first will make a different in the final die size outcome.

It is possible that you haven't been confronted with this observation before, but that simply underscores my current gripes about playtest culture, because this choice faces all of our 15 and 17 year old characters with every roll.

Best, Ron
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jrs
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« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2007, 12:52:11 PM »

A quick addition to Ron's post above:  I want to point out that at the beginning of a chapter, all of us put forward a d4 as our reputation die.  We do not anticipate utilizing one of the higher reputation dice until a scene is established.  This is why both the reputation die change and the age affects are firing at the same time and causing us confusion. 

Julie

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Steve Segedy
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« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2007, 01:29:59 PM »

Hey Ron,

What I tried to express earlier (albeit clumsily) was that die changes due to age are always the final consideration, rather than the first.  Therefore, in both of your examples, #2 should come first and #1 (age) should come second, resulting in a die increase in both cases. 

If the examples had been different (a 15 year old in a personal scene, a 17 year old in a mission scene) age would still be the last consideration, and would therefore lower the die in both cases.  This means there are times when it's simply not worth using a D6 reputation, because your age is just going to lower it to D4 again.

In any case, your feedback about the age rules- and the general confusion they seem to create- are prompting us to look hard at how they should be changed.  Thanks again!
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jrs
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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2007, 07:51:07 AM »

We only managed to get in two chapters (6 & 7) this past Sunday.  My character has managed to stay alive, barely, I used mission leader privilege to bump her off a corner she had already visited once.  She's now bouncing between Suicidal Depression and Derangement.  She gunned down her first Germans point blank in Chapter 7. 

Ron's character is now at Nervous Breakdown for the second time.  And we'll need to play out his character's demise next session.

We were originally uncertain about the meaning of "visiting" a corner--did it mean passing through the corner or starting a chapter from the corner? Based on the play example, we surmised that the corner only counts towards the character's demise if the character starts a chapter from the corner, that is, the singling out of a player to move on the grid twice can mitigate the effect of immediately landing on a corner.  You may want to clarify that in the game text.

A new thing we exploited in play, forced re-rolls to make another player's character fail a personal scene. It finally clicked that re-rolls could be used to force a re-roll of a die that was successful. We ruthlessly squandered endeared items with this discovery.

Julie
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jrs
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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2007, 08:10:46 AM »

Oh, I forgot--we have another question about the rules. 

We do not understand this, "Reputations are similarly frozen wherever they happened to be when the character made his exit" (p. 32 under "When your character is gone").  What does that mean?  Is it that the exited character must continue with only d4s for personal scenes?

Julie
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Jason Morningstar
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« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2007, 08:47:28 AM »

Hi Julie,

Glad you guys figured the re-roll thing out, although I feel sorry for your poor characters. 

You need to start in a corner for it to have impact, so passing through a corner (through being singled out) would not count as a second "visit".  If you end up on a 'write out" corner after a chapter, that character should be written out in the following one.  So if you start in A1 for the second time during chapter six, somewhere in chapter seven that character should encounter martyrdom and leave the story in body.

The intention (and I can see that it is unclear, sorry) is that a dead player can use either a d4 or the highest die they invoked in play.  The same thematic constraints apply, so using the d4 should highlight their former immaturity in some way, while, say, a d8 would be fond memories of their good qualities and lost potential.
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Ron Edwards
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« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2007, 08:51:42 AM »

Wait a minute.

So a dead (or otherwise-exited) character can re-use a given increased die size for Reputation?

If so, then that is a new use of that rule which is not available to the characters still in the story. Is that what you're saying?

'Cause that ain't stated in the rules at all.

Best, Ron
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Jason Morningstar
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« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2007, 09:26:31 AM »

Sorry, wish I could edit.  I mis-remembered:

"If your character is written out of the story, you still get mission and personal scenes, but they should be about your character's absence.  Feel free to include other characters and interact with them as the voice of their lost comrade.  Your character's final grid position is an epitaph - draw situation elements from it for the remainder of the game.  Reputations are similarly frozen wherever they happened to be when the character made his exit.  You'll contribute one of these dice, as usual, to the overall mission.  Since your grid position is frozen, winning or losing your personal scene has no mechanical consequence once your character is gone."

So yes, you've got your grid position die, and a d4, and the choice you need to make is which of those two you contribute to the mission.  Cold comfort, but I was referring to reputation not as a game term but as a personal one - you're dead, whatever rep you had isn't going to change any more. 





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