Realism and combat

[Lyrax]

Different Terrain? Book Four: the Codex of Battle, a few pages into it.  Look there and you will find it.

[Ace]

Different Terrain? Book Four: the Codex of Battle, a few pages into it.  Look there and you will find it.

I was a little unclear, I meant to say Model the extra training recieved in coping with extra terrain. Maybe removing x dice penalty to represent the training recieved or whatever

[Lyrax]

You could lower the TN by one (training), two (extensive training) or three (native).  Or you could give bonus dice vs. the terrain.

[Brian Leybourne]

Eh. Actually, parrying or blocking a Dagger is quite difficult.

Usually it's just more effective to stick the guy. (why isn't Thrust a defensive maneuver?)

Thus why Dagger fights are usually quite short. :)

Thrust *is* a defensive maneuver. Remember that when the other guy attacks you and it's your turn to declare a defense, you can always declare an attack instead. Then you do the whole "attempt to steal initiative" thing and hope you steal it, because then you get an unopposed hit on him (and since you'll probably reduce his CP through shock, he's not attacking you with as many dice probably).

It's even better if you have a decent parrying weapon (which a dagger isn't) or a shield, because then your response to an attack can be a simultaneous block/strike or evasive attack. You don't even need to steal initiative since even though he'll strike first, you do get your defensive bonus, and given that he's already declared his attack, he's got no defense (except luck dice) while you do.

[Stuart]

Hi I am a member of a serious historical fencing group and would like to say that a greatsword wielder would almost never be defeated by a rapierist. I love rapiers, I really do. They are the weapon I am best at.

Rapier vs Shortsword.

If the shortsword guy knows his rapier, you are dead. The guy with the sword can use hand parries and an aggressive bastard guardant ward coupled with forward passes to get around the point and remove limbs.
I know this because we drilled sword vs rapier just last Thursday.

ANY polearm wielder worth his salt will take out a swordsman unless the sword guy has a shield. A buckler won't cut it. I tried (stupidly) to parry a 5 ft axe with my buckler during a melee and got "killed" easily doing it. The axe just blasted through my defence.

A greatsword is alot like a polearm in the way it is used. Against a rapier wielder, A large blow could be thrown from out of distance on the pass and the rapier guy can either pass back out of distance or die. Don't forget also that one can halfsword with most blades and a greatsword held in the halfsword position would be a formidible weapon.

I know this is a game but the truth is that some weapons have very little chance against others. Read Chuckie's swords post and follow the link I gave. It talks all about which weapons "hath the 'vantage" over others.
Cheers
Stu.

Cheers
Stu.

[Jaif]

I've got a question for all you knife experts.  Now don't laugh at me...

There was a movie... Stevan Segal & Tommy Lee Jones on a battleship (the Iowa?); TLJ is trying to steal nukes, and SS is just a simple cook.  In the movie, SS gets in a knife fight, I think w/TLJ.  The knife fight looked rather, uh, different.

If you remember the scene/movie, can any of you tell me if the knife fight looked "correct"?  I've always wondered if that was pure Hollywood, or if they were emulating some martial art.

-Jeff

[Ace]

I've got a question for all you knife experts.  Now don't laugh at me...

There was a movie... Stevan Segal & Tommy Lee Jones on a battleship (the Iowa?); TLJ is trying to steal nukes, and SS is just a simple cook.  In the movie, SS gets in a knife fight, I think w/TLJ.  The knife fight looked rather, uh, different.

If you remember the scene/movie, can any of you tell me if the knife fight looked "correct"?  I've always wondered if that was pure Hollywood, or if they were emulating some martial art.

-Jeff

IAKAKE (I am not a knife expert) just an amatuer but my impression of the scene in Under Seige 2 (the fight between Everett McGill and Seagal  is good but kind of Hollywood.

What I saw is a lot of aggresive parrying and fencing action that a real knife fight wouldn't have.

On the good end both of fighters had distinctive styles, Seagal using reverse grip (IIRC) and McGill using the old "sabre" style.

Generally IME the moves were showier than real knife work and there were few limb attacks or attempts to grapple.

Other than that it was head and tails above most of the knife work in movies, especially the knife duels in Teen Punk Epics and Westerns.

At least the two characters showed style and what looks like a measure of skill.

 I am told there is an excellent Bali Song scene in the Burt Reynolds Movie Sharkeys Machine but I haven't seen it.

[Bankuei]

Seriously though IIRC Pentjak Silat is one of the only martial arts that emphasizes fighting on different terrain. I wonder if there is a way to model that for The Riddle?

I thought the use of theknife (a kris isn't it)was secondary to unarmed techniques? Are there different style varients or is that a misconception of mineBack to top

I would probably consider Pentjak as its own proficiency, since it seems proficiencies are based on styles of fighting.  Pentjak doesn't train you to not fall down as much as how to fight on the ground to begin with if you're in that situation.  In a fight on bad terrain, we'd just go straight to the ground and fight from there.  I'd probably eliminate or reduce the penalties for fighting prone as the change to make.

As far as the focus, most people in Indonesia are rice farmers, who carry a variety of blades ranging from machetes to rice cutters(goloks).  Most people trained in Silat are farmers defending their villages, so almost everyone is trained in the tools they carry and trained to fight against other blades.  Our basic assumptions are 1) you will be attacked by surprise, 2) There will be at least 3 attackers, 3) each will have a weapon for each hand.

Overkill? Yes, but considering that the folks who are teaching come from a place where it happens everyday, and I'm fortunate enough to have never been in a knife fight, I'd say it's intelligent training.

There are different styles dependant on the area, weapons, and folks you'd expect to be fighting out there, so yes, there is quite a room for divergence.  As far as the weapon/empty hands training, of the 3 penjak styles I've seen so far, all are designed so that the same moves you use barehanded are the same ones you use armed, although my guru says,"If you can deal with a knife, a punch is nothing..."  

Generally IME the moves were showier than real knife work and there were few limb attacks or attempts to grapple.

Which are the primary attack methods in Silat :)

Chris

[Bob Richter]

Hi I am a member of a serious historical fencing group and would like to say that a greatsword wielder would almost never be defeated by a rapierist. I love rapiers, I really do. They are the weapon I am best at.

Rapier vs Shortsword.

If the shortsword guy knows his rapier, you are dead. The guy with the sword can use hand parries and an aggressive bastard guardant ward coupled with forward passes to get around the point and remove limbs.
I know this because we drilled sword vs rapier just last Thursday.

ANY polearm wielder worth his salt will take out a swordsman unless the sword guy has a shield. A buckler won't cut it. I tried (stupidly) to parry a 5 ft axe with my buckler during a melee and got "killed" easily doing it. The axe just blasted through my defence.

A greatsword is alot like a polearm in the way it is used. Against a rapier wielder, A large blow could be thrown from out of distance on the pass and the rapier guy can either pass back out of distance or die. Don't forget also that one can halfsword with most blades and a greatsword held in the halfsword position would be a formidible weapon.

I know this is a game but the truth is that some weapons have very little chance against others. Read Chuckie's swords post and follow the link I gave. It talks all about which weapons "hath the 'vantage" over others.
Cheers
Stu.

Cheers
Stu.

Not to presume on your real-world experience, but are you saying that...
1) A Rapier, in its favored environment, is a worthless weapon?
2) A Sword, in its favored environment, is a worthless weapon?

Because, if you are, I'm calling BS.

If that were true, mankind would have stuck with polearms and axes.

We didn't, and there are very good reasons for it.

[Lyrax]

No, Bob, I think Stu's saying that fighting is like a big game of paper-rock-scissors (which is true).

Polearm beats Sword
Sword beats Metal Rat's Tail (Rapier)
Rapier beats Doppelhander
Doppelhander beats polearm
All of it beats Dagger, in a fair faight.
In a fair fight.

[Bob Richter]

No, Bob, I think Stu's saying that fighting is like a big game of paper-rock-scissors (which is true).

Polearm beats Sword
Sword beats Metal Rat's Tail (Rapier)
Rapier beats Doppelhander
Doppelhander beats polearm
All of it beats Dagger, in a fair faight.
In a fair fight.

Which weapon has the advantage depends on the environment in which they are used, and HOW they are used. (not which weapon they are.)

Polearm _DOESN'T_ beat sword. Not most of the time, and quite regardless of shields. Because of the way polearms are used, most are no longer than a good long sword, but they lack a hand-guard or a full blade. YES, they're dangerous, but I'd give the advantage to the sword.

Sword _DOESN'T_ beat Rapier...PERIOD, not in the Rapier's favored environment -- a one-on-one duel in no armor heavier than leather. More conventional swords, compared to a Rapier, are either clumsy, short, or both. As mentioned many, many times, though, the Rapier is patently useless on the battlefield. It _IS_ a wonder-weapon, but it has its limits.

Rapier beats Doppelhander -- but only in the same circumstances it beats everything else.

Doppelhander beats polearm -- yes, because it is a large sword purposely built to tackle the longer polearms that would actually give a Greatsword real trouble.

And, yes, Daggers are generally ineffective, in all but the closest of fights.

[Stuart]

Hi All,

Lyrax has it. Swordsmanship is a game of paper-rock-scissors IMHO.

Bob is right.  Environment can make a difference. Dagger will beat forest bill in a dark alley for example.

Rapier does not have the advantage over backsword.

If the sword guy has never seen a rapier before or fenced sword vs rapier he will be easily killed. If he knows what to do then the rapier guy is likely to be the one defeated. Silver has explicit instructions on how to fight thje single rapier with the single sword. Last Thursday was pretty even with the rapier winning about half of the time. Last night, we played a little (only three or four hits) and I didn't even go close to hitting the guy with the sword with my rapier. He made a true cross, got past my point and took off a limb head etc.

Staff (or any other polearm) vs sword or rapier. Again, read Silver. There is a great story about a Stout English chappie named Peake who was captured by Spaniards and forced to fight them. He defeated his first opponent at rapier and dagger but refused to fight on without the true English weapon- The quarterstaff. Peake ended up fighting multiple opponents (4 or 5 from memory) and killed them all with his quarterstaff.
The Spaniards let him go out of respect after that. Such is the power of one of the simplest weapons in existence.
Silver says that a man with quarterstaff is a better weapon than two armed with rapiers or swords.

Bob, this stuff about sword vs rapier from Silver really works. Read the book and give it a try in training.
Cheers
Stu.

Cheers
Stu.

[Lance D. Allen]

Slight divergence from the topic at hand, but Stu's mention of the Englishman with his Q-staff fighting off multiple opponents reminds me of the scene in... I think the 3rd book of the Wheel of Time, where Mat takes on Gawain and Galad quarterstaff to swords, and whips them both soundly, despite them being the two best students, and his own recent illness. Though I am not familiar with the western use of staves, I think it is a weapon which should not be undervalued.

[Ace]

Slight divergence from the topic at hand, but Stu's mention of the Englishman with his Q-staff fighting off multiple opponents reminds me of the scene in... I think the 3rd book of the Wheel of Time, where Mat takes on Gawain and Galad quarterstaff to swords, and whips them both soundly, despite them being the two best students, and his own recent illness. Though I am not familiar with the western use of staves, I think it is a weapon which should not be undervalued.

Well IMO  the spear is the Queen of Weapons and the staff ,her older sister, a Princess. Both are highly underrated worhorses of the warriors trade.

Shoot only the short sword (as machete) club (and varient the tonfa) the knife and the two sisters (Queen Spear as the Bayonet) are still battlefield weapons

Swords, axes polearms and the others have faded from view and while the swords have t the glamour I would still choose a spear over any other hand weapon in an ancient battlefield.

 
The only vulnerability a spear has is to a deft fighter with a shield (if you are using it 2 handed)  a dopplehander (if you are in formation) or someone really fast.

A spearman better know knife wrestling,  :)

[Bob Richter]

Hi All,

Lyrax has it. Swordsmanship is a game of paper-rock-scissors IMHO.

Bob is right.  Environment can make a difference. Dagger will beat forest bill in a dark alley for example.

Rapier does not have the advantage over backsword.

If the sword guy has never seen a rapier before or fenced sword vs rapier he will be easily killed. If he knows what to do then the rapier guy is likely to be the one defeated. Silver has explicit instructions on how to fight thje single rapier with the single sword. Last Thursday was pretty even with the rapier winning about half of the time. Last night, we played a little (only three or four hits) and I didn't even go close to hitting the guy with the sword with my rapier. He made a true cross, got past my point and took off a limb head etc.

Staff (or any other polearm) vs sword or rapier. Again, read Silver. There is a great story about a Stout English chappie named Peake who was captured by Spaniards and forced to fight them. He defeated his first opponent at rapier and dagger but refused to fight on without the true English weapon- The quarterstaff. Peake ended up fighting multiple opponents (4 or 5 from memory) and killed them all with his quarterstaff.
The Spaniards let him go out of respect after that. Such is the power of one of the simplest weapons in existence.
Silver says that a man with quarterstaff is a better weapon than two armed with rapiers or swords.

Bob, this stuff about sword vs rapier from Silver really works. Read the book and give it a try in training.
Cheers
Stu.

Cheers
Stu.

Rapiers DO have an advantage against any shorter or heavier sword. The length and agility of the blade will often allow it to deliver a killing stroke before an opponent can act.

And do spare me the anecdotal evidence.

"give it a try in training."

Heh. If I trained with a sword, I would. I don't.

Which I why I feel amazingly silly arguing with you.

But do keep these simple facts in mind:
If the Rapier were not a superior duelling sword, it would never have supplanted the others (which it did.)
If the Sword were not a superior battlefield weapon, it would never have supplanted the spear (which it did.)
Combat is NOT rock-paper-scissors.

I do believe this is the last I shall say on the subject.