The Forge Archives

Hi there,

This is a spin-off thread from the Remarkable Player Apathy thread, in which Eric (Pyron) has presented his concerns with the social dynamic in his role-playing group. What interests me most about that thread, lately, is that only very late in the discussion did we learn that three of the individuals involved are ... brothers.

Sput! This changes everything. Here we are, discussing social contracts and the embedding of play goals and acceptable mechanics in a social situation ... and the key information about what the individuals might care about, moment to moment, is not there.

This is not to say that Eric was hiding anything or did anything wrong, not at all. I'm saying, rather, no one gave a thought to the issue, even in terms of asking anything that might have uncovered it. Discussions about role-playing are often conducted in a kind of denial that basic human relationships are going to be the top priority. I've tried to convey this in many posts in the past, as well as acknowledge it in the final parts of my big essay, but clearly it deserves more attention.

So let's get specific. Let's talk about families and role-playing. We're all familiar with family dynamics: that siblings exist in a kind of push-me-pull-you between cooperation and competition, and that parents and their kids exist in an ongoing limits-set-and-test context, which by definition is adjusted over time. And these two effects are just the foundation for whatever specific history a family has undergone, whether it's divorce or significant changes in financial circumstances or whatever.

Now, take that to role-playing. It so happens that I have no immediate personal experience in this regard at all; my family members don't know from role-playing and don't really care. I can call in years and years of sordid detail regarding romantic partners and role-playing, but not much about family. I've GM'd groups with family members in them, sure - notably a brother and sister whom we had to rein in from messing over one another's characters "just because" - but not very many.

Now, let's run it down. Who's role-played extensively with family members? Parent-child, sibling, whatever? What aspects of role-playing were easier? What were harder? What caused trouble, if anything? What potential problems were automatically solved? We all seem to be agreeing that Social Contracts need to be discussed prior to play (with or without using that term or other jargon), so how does the presence of absence of family members affect what details need to be discussed?

What I don't think will fly with me is the idea that, "Oh, it makes no difference, family or not, role-playing is just role-playing." I'll call bullshit on that one in advance, just as I would regarding romance among role-players. Of course it makes a difference. I'm interested in what the differences might be.

One suggestion I have is that among-family activities tend to be socially-inwards or confirmatory of existing social roles, whereas out-of-family activities tend to be more socially exploratory and in fact roads to  continued, other activities and roles.

Best,
Ron

I've played extensively with my sister and my wife, with almost entirely postive experiences. I find that praising the stuff they do right (positive reinforcement and all) works really well, but it's hard if you ever need to stop a nasty trend. I've also had groups of siblings (not mine, but rather amongst themselves) in my groups. It usually worked out allright, but I play with a pretty grown-up crowd.

Jake

Quote from: Ron EdwardsNow, let's run it down. Who's role-played extensively with family members? Parent-child, sibling, whatever? What aspects of role-playing were easier? What were harder? What caused trouble, if anything? What potential problems were automatically solved? We all seem to be agreeing that Social Contracts need to be discussed prior to play (with or without using that term or other jargon), so how does the presence of absence of family members affect what details need to be discussed?

Yeah, Seth, what about it?

For me, I played with my brother a couple of times early on, but our competitive natures made it impossible to continue. I was the GM, he quit. I can't even tell you how many sessions we may have played together (this was over 20 years ago) much less anything more detailed.

I can say it made a difference, in that the existing relationship worked its way in. Not very profound, but just call me another data point on this one.

Mike

Ron Edwards wrote:

[/quote]Now, let's run it down. Who's role-played extensively with family members? Parent-child, sibling, whatever? What aspects of role-playing were easier? What were harder? What caused trouble, if anything? What potential problems were automatically solved? We all seem to be agreeing that Social Contracts need to be discussed prior to play (with or without using that term or other jargon), so how does the presence of absence of family members affect what details need to be discussed?

Quote

I have had the opportunity to role play with my brother on a few occasions.  We are 4 years apart in age and the age difference never had any effects.  In all role playing together I game mastered/DMed and he was a player.  We never once had any issues or problems, had a lot of fun and ended up enjoying the game together along with the other members of the group.

One thing that really helped with having my brother in the group was I always knew I could count on my brother to be a leveling figure in the game.  He always tried to settle arguements and tried to help new players to get accustomed to the game.  Our relationship helped him to be a steadying force and a level head since he knew how to deal with me and typically what my stance was on matters pertaining to the game.

Playing with my wife was another matter.  I believe people felt I was biased.  Which I was, although I tried really hard not to be.  However the husband/wife relationship tends to be much more dynamic than a brother relationship.  Without getting into details there was also issues of a power-struggle.  She was a player and I game mastered.  We never had a chance to play together as players and that might have been different.

I have seen similar situations with other wife/husband gaming groups, and they all have the same issue only with different degrees of success and failure.  It seemed like when both were players there was more harmony.

On one occasion I actually had a chance to play with my mother for a six month period.  It was the same situation as my brother and I, we had a good time and she had a blast learning a new game.

I think the situations can vary, but I'm convinced that the wife/husband combo has the most potential for problems.

~Shard

Quote from: Shard

Quote from: Ron EdwardsNow, let's run it down. Who's role-played extensively with family members? Parent-child, sibling, whatever? What aspects of role-playing were easier? What were harder? What caused trouble, if anything? What potential problems were automatically solved? We all seem to be agreeing that Social Contracts need to be discussed prior to play (with or without using that term or other jargon), so how does the presence of absence of family members affect what details need to be discussed?

[Snip.]
Playing with my wife was another matter.  I believe people felt I was biased.  Which I was, although I tried really hard not to be.  However the husband/wife relationship tends to be much more dynamic than a brother relationship.  Without getting into details there was also issues of a power-struggle.  She was a player and I gamemastered.  We never had a chance to play together as players and that might have been different.

I have seen similar situations with other wife/husband gaming groups, and they all have the same issue only with different degrees of success and failure.  It seemed like when both were players there was more harmony.

...I think the situations can vary, but I'm convinced that the wife/husband combo has the most potential for problems.

And I'm convinced otherwise.  I met my wife at University gaming where we were both frequently called upon to gamemaster.  Now we're one of those sickeningly sweet 'knows what each other is thinking' couples.

When I run a group, she not only plays but becomes a player/facilitator (where I first became aware of many of the potentials for sharing gamemaster power).  When she runs a group, I play the trickster (well, I do that for every group, just my play-mentality I guess), but for her it is a tool to use like scene framing.  (She needs a scene 'punched up?'  She knows how to 'punch my buttons' and soon I've got everybody in trouble.)

Now we game virtually every night (one way or another), we're co-developing Scattershot (see the lower forum), and we have two kids who're already showing interest in "rolling play games."

So for me, the marriage has been with my best friend, and it sounds like it works a lot like your brother and you.  (I don't know sibling relationships, I'm an 'only.')  To me this says you're over-simplifying things.  I know what you describe can happen (it's your experience after all), but my experience suggests that it is too narrow a generalization.

Fang Langford

p. s. I can't really say anything about being players together (except for some Gamemasterful sharing games we've tried), what was left for gamemasters at those times all sucked.

Hey folks,

I'd prefer that this thread not become a litany of, "I play with family members and it goes great," and "I play with family members and it doesn't," and so forth. I've discovered before, in threads about role-playing with romantic partners, that people become very defensive about the relationships in question very fast.

For instance, Fang, the issue of the generality of the spouse/not-spouse conflict is totally moot. Your good experiences don't constitute either a falsifier or a supporter of any generalization. Let's not get into a percentages-based hassle about it.

What I'm after are differences between playing with family members and playing with non-family members. For instance, Jake mentioned playing with a spouse, a sibling, and GMing siblings unrelated to him. So it worked "well" - that's fine. But what I'd like to know about is whether the means of it working "well" differed from the means employed for non-family members.

Best,
Ron

I think the answer to your questions, Ron, is pretty simple.

People have a tendency to accept non-productive behavior from their players because they think that not playing with someone will result in losing their friendship. Therefore, they choose to not be honest with their players when there's a problem, which just results in poor gameplay. (And, usually, an eventual fallout.)

I've seen this exaggerated ten-fold with family members. The only family member I've role-played with is my younger brother, but it definitely cropped up there - he was young, and I put up with a lot of bad gameplay I shouldn't have because I love my brother and didn't want to hurt his feelings. I've seen this same pattern when playing with other families.

People tend to be most dishonest with the ones they love the most. Given that, the trick for successful play among family is to break that pattern and be completely honest with them. Some of the best times I've had role-playing were also with my brother, and that's because there's a bond there where we can relate to each other's imaginations more than a friend or stranger could - we can riff off each other and come up with amazing stuff. Establishing a contract between family members before play stating that in-game stuff will not affect family relations could have made the enjoyable parts come up a lot more.

I'm going to agree with Clinton.  I think that when family members RP together, a lot more attention is devoted to a 'if I do this with my character/NP, will they be sad/mad/glad?'  -- or conversely,  "I think I'll yank my brother's chain because he ticked me off when he drank the last Pepsi."

IMO, The more emotionally involved players are with one another, the more the RP itself will push to extremes: good or bad.  Family members aren't always emotionally involved, though.  I was in an AD&D chronicle once with a pair of brothers who were very apathetic towards one another & everyone else, and it carried over to their characters.  Neither played poorly, but it got boring quick.

Good point, Clinton. When I game with my brothers I do my best to be just as honest as I would with the other participants. So far, it looks like it's working. To keep this thread from becoming a litany of gaming-with-relatives stories, I'll stop right there.

So, I stand behind Clinton's statement. Going out of your way to treat siblings as you would the other players is key.

Zak,

If I'm not mistaken, you're not agreeing with Clinton (and Laurel) at all. They're saying that playing with family members requires more attention to explicit goals, etc, whereas you're saying that family members should be treated with as much of that stuff as non-family members. They say "more," you say "the same."

Best,
Ron

Yoink! What I meant to support was that dishonesty with siblings is dysfunctional. Well, dishonesty with any participant. If it's a struggle to be honest with someone, then you have to make the extra effort for functional gaming. It's not a struggle for me, so I'm not a good sample for dysfunctional family gaming.