Directoral Mechanics?

[Wart]

Thus, in every instance of play, no matter what modes of decision-making are being employed by the participants, at least one actual human being is exercising narrative authority.

Binary logic again. The human and the dice can both contribute narrative authority to the same piece of narration.

*edit* This may have come across as a bit rude - I'm sorry.

[Seth L. Blumberg]

Dice can't have narrative authority. They don't talk.

[Paganini]

Dice can't have narrative authority. They don't talk.

This is beginning to sound like dogma. No offense if that's not how you meant it, but really, what is it supposed to prove? "Dice can't talk." Okay, so what? To paraphrase Qui-Gon Jinn: "The inability to speak does not necessarily denote a lack of narrative authority."

In many games, dice have much narrative authority. They are given narrative authority by the game designer. If the players don't honor the narrative authority, theyn they're "cheating" by breaking the implicit agreement to abide by the rules that is made when a group chooses a system. Recall that narrative authority means "saying what happens," not "giving color to what happens." Any and every time dice determine an event in an RPG they are by definition "saying what happens." Bang. Narrative authority. It's up to the players and the GM to colorize the event, but if they don't honor what the dice say happens, then they are cheating, plain and simple.

Consider: In a game of D&D, one of my NPCs rolls enough to kill one of the PCs. Instead of killing the PC, I say something like "the Dragon misses you!" I justify this to myself that it's good for the story for the PC to survive. Zap! Wrong! I just cheated. The D&D rules don't say "do what's good for the story." They say "if your character's HP fall to zero, your character dies." In a D&D game the dice are often directly responsible for deciding whether or not a PC loses hit points. If deciding who lives or dies isn't narrative authority, I don't know what is.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Couple of questions:

1) What the hell? Seriously. "The dice have narrative authority."

2) Is anyone convincing anyone of anything here? It sounds like you guys are saying, "Is." "Is not." "Is!" "Is not."

3) Does it matter?

If I'm wrong on this, so be it, but I just read this entire discussion and can't find a single followed-through point, just a lot of conjecture.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

I agree. The questions that were initially raised seem to have been dealt with or de-railed. There were at one point about three topics at once; now, only the least relevant seems to have remained.

I strongly urge everyone to review the entire thread and decide whether you want to continue the discussion - and if you do, then consider starting a new thread about a very explicit topic. Right now, this thread is a bit like a thalidomide baby.

Best,
Ron

[Blake Hutchins]

Dice are a mechanic to determine conflict or task outcome, on a pass-fail basis, whether binary or gradient.  Humans interpret the dice results to fit the outcome to the current in-game circumstances.  Some systems provide more granulated outcomes based on tables, hit location, or detailed gradients.  Some systems use other resolution means than Fortune, but the interpretive requirement of a human narrator is still necessary to determine the particulars of what happens.  "Power" (murky a term as it is) rests in who specifically gets to do the interpretation, and determines the scope of that narration.

Best,

Blake

(Edited to close a paren.)

[Wart]

Dice can't have narrative authority. They don't talk.

They can, however, limit the narrative authority of the human being, and so exert a sort of authority that way.

*Edit* It strikes me that an example is necessary.

No action resolution mechanic:

Player: "My character tries to do this." (Makes his own decision about whether or not his character succeeds or fails. He is utterly free to choose either outcome. He decides that the character fails.) "My character fails, and this is what happens..." (The player has narrative authority throughout.)

Action resolution mechanic:

Player: "My character tries to do this." (Rolls dice, or compares stats, or otherwise delegates the decision as to whether his character succeeds or fails to a set of rules which may or may not include dice. Let's assume it does include dice: he rolls, and the dice indicate a failure. Unless he wants to turn around and go against the result the dice indicated - unlikely since the group decided to delegate the choice between success and failure to the dice - the player cannot choose to have his character succeed in the narrative. The dice have exerted a degree of control over the narrative - not a sentient sort of control, but control nonetheless.) "My character fails, and this is what happens." (The player reassumes narrative authority.)

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

Did people miss my post, above? Please review.

Thanks,
Ron

[Wart]

Consider: In a game of D&D, one of my NPCs rolls enough to kill one of the PCs. Instead of killing the PC, I say something like "the Dragon misses you!" I justify this to myself that it's good for the story for the PC to survive. Zap! Wrong! I just cheated. The D&D rules don't say "do what's good for the story." They say "if your character's HP fall to zero, your character dies." In a D&D game the dice are often directly responsible for deciding whether or not a PC loses hit points. If deciding who lives or dies isn't narrative authority, I don't know what is.

I wouldn't go so far as to say this, unless of course the implicit assumption behind the example is that the gaming group has decided to follow the D&D rules (designed to favour Gamist outcomes with a few squirts of Simulationism) as written and not fudge dicerolls. I don't know many groups who do that as a rule but there you go. ;)

[Blake Hutchins]

It strikes me that at this point, the dice/authority part of this discussion is nothing but arguing semantics.  I propose we either resume with the original topic or kill the thread.

Best,

Blake

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Blake,

In my opinion, the original topic has been resolved.

If anyone wants to pick it up, start a new thread.

If anyone wants to continue or develop other topics that have arisen in this thread, start a new thread.

Best,
Ron