funny or racist?

[contracycle]

What definition of racist are we working with?

The usually one, the taking of race into account in situations where it is otherwise irrelevant.

A wigger is a white person who wants to behave like the type of black person who freely refers to himself as a nigger (nigga', whatever).

Says who, you?  And what is it that gives you such insight into their psyche that you know what they "want" to be?  If they adopt some style of clothing or speech, present as it is in pop culture, why do you make this a racial reference?

Nigger has lost its value as an extremely negative term due to so many blacks calling each other niggers.

... even though the only people I've ever seen to claim that are overt racists attempting to explain away their own use of the term.  I have to say this is news to me; the word was sufficient to cause scandal only recently.  Again the appeal to "what black people do" is part of the stock racist formula.

Everyone knows what a wigger is. The example shows taking being a wigger one step further.

Well actually its an Americanism, so not every one knows what it is.  And it is clearly a term of abuse, intended as such, and which intends to do so by drawing an allusion to race.  Seems pretty unequivocal to me.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Gareth, ease off the jets, please. If you want to address the points, don't go nose-to-nose with migo, but rather spell out your response for Limejello; he can decide for himself. I want to stress that I am not shutting down your actual points. For what it's worth, I think they're potent.

Limejello, here's something else to think about. The ultimate authority and conscience for this game lies with its author. It's impossible to avoid offending anyone, not if one's topic is relevant to anything important. [You would not believe what people have posted about my game Trollbabe ... I mean, really, crazy talk.] So there's a boundary, but no one knows what it is except for yourself. I think a lot of the posting on this thread is really well-directed to helping you find it, and I look forward to seeing you arrive there.

As a possibly related side question: do you have a working title for the game?

Best, Ron

[Meguey]

hi I'm writing a sci fi rpg called Operator which you may have read about above and I made a joke at one point and it occurs to me that it might be offensive.  All though I am trying to write an edgy rpg it worries me that some people may not have a sense of humor.

If you want Operator to be a game that's conscious of ethnicity issues, or addresses 'race' head-on, or examines what happens when physical appearance is totally malleable and unhinged from genetics, cool, go for it, there's lots of reading and research to do and people willing to point you in good directions (see above). If you want to Operator to be a game where everybody gets the jokes and nobody gets pissed at, that's a whole different thing.

Race and Age can be altered at will and have become fashion statements.  We've all heard the term wigger from the days when white people used to pretend to be black.  Well now through the miracles of gene therapy they can actually become black!

My opinion? The two second sentences weaken the interest of the first. I get stuck trying to figure out what a wigger is, whether this is a real world term I should know or an in-game 'history' word I should know, I'm wondering how 'gene therapy' = 'at will' because gene therapy is a long intensive process, I think the interest of being able to shift my character's ethnicity and age easily is over simplified in 'are you a white chick who wants to be black? Now you can be!' 

I'd be looking for something that told me I could get up in the morning and decide to be a 15-year old Japanese boy with naturally red and curly hair, then maybe switch to being a 34-year old Italian woman with glossy-smooth black hair for that working lunch, then relax at the golf-course as a 60-year old black man with killer dreads for the afternoon. How do I keep my sense of self? How do I recognize my friends and family? How do I maintain my omnipower affiliations? Does my robot respond to me no matter what I look like?

[Ron Edwards]

Oops, I missed the working title ... sorry about that.

Best, Ron

[Limejello]

Well I actually this was just in a side bar about fasion...I did want to have a lot of jokes in my book (in fact I plan to follow very example with a joke my attribute check is covered bellow) Though I will say I intended this to be one of those jokes that's funny cause it's in appropriate.  Will farrell once said that innapropriate behavior makes him laugh.  I kind of tend to agree.  Though meg made a very interesting point: would biometrics scanners have a hard time reading a change in race.

Rob: I think there was something fishy about those Yakuza.  I want to check above the roof and under carriage of the car while I'm driving to see if they planted a bomb or something.
John: Okay I'm going to make a perception check in secret so you don't know whether you succeed or fail.  :John decides Rob needs a 13 to fin the bomb strapped underneath the car.  He rolls a die and adds double his perception attribute (3+3+d12).  The die reads 8 which is added to 6 for a a total 14: Okay!  No mistake here there's a huge fagot of TNT taped underneath your car set to go off any second.
Rob: Alright!  I speed up and hit a ramp causing my car to spiral gracefully through the air where it strikes a crane just as its belly is exposed ripping the bomb away from my car.  I then land on all four wheels with PERFECT form.
John: Okay! :he picks up the die and throws it at Rob hitting him square between the eyes:
Ron: OW!  What the hell was that for?
John: Stupidity...

[Justin Nichol - BFG]

Yea, I'm not trying to get all up into arms, but you asked if it would be offensive to some people and it would be (obviously, as it already has been). It's up to you to proceed from that. Honestly, the term wigger is pretty inaccurate and I agree that it's usually used by white people who don't really have any connection with african american subulture. But to "act black" in todays society is to say essentially that a white person is taking part in and is interested in the subculture of hip hop. But hip hop has included whites since it's very beginnings, and damn near every hip hop artist who has offered any meaningful ideas on the subject says that hip hop is for everyone. Wigger is usually used by people with no connection to hip hop to somehow chide something they don't understand. Consider that in many places in Africa, city dwellers have begun to adopt the style of American hip hop artists. They are imitating as much as any suburban white kid, so by extension is it ok to call those Africans something derogatory? That is the problem with acting as though a subculture somehow belongs to a specific ethnicity. Hell, go back far enough and Elvis was a "wigger" and by extension all of us who enjoy rock and roll are just wiggers. Subculture doesn't belong to any race of people.

That said, I like the idea, just not the joke, and not because I'm offended but just because I don't really feel it's particularly witty.

The idea itself (which I approve of) also reminds me of William Gibson's book Neuromancer in which plastic surgery is so common that when the main character encounters someone who is genuinely ugly, they find them intensely interesting looking because beauty is so cheap and common that it's become boring and standard.

I guess it all comes down to the fact that there really is a difference between Doug Stanhope or Lenny Bruce and a racist or sexist joke told over a beer.

[Parthenia]

who wants to behave like the type of black person who freely refers to himself as a nigger (nigga', whatever). Nigger has lost its value as an extremely negative term due to so many blacks calling each other niggers.

I personally find the term nigger extremely offensive, and even more offensive when I hear other black people saying it about each other. Even as a term of endearment. Because then other people think it's okay to call us niggers and that it's no longer an extremely negative term. 

My impression of a wigger is a white person who behaves in a stereotypically "black" manner, which is why I thought it was a weak example. Any white person trying to act like me will come off looking like a big hippie.

I think you are on to an interesting premise in your game, but it needs some research, clarity of terms, and maybe a little less cynicism in the beginning stages of development. I'm all for making people think and be uncomfortable when it comes to issues of race, ethnicity, and dominant cultures.

Julia

[migo]

What definition of racist are we working with?

The usually one, the taking of race into account in situations where it is otherwise irrelevant.

In which case it's not racism here, as when you have the technology to change appearance of race on a genetic level discussion of race is hardly irrelevant.

A wigger is a white person who wants to behave like the type of black person who freely refers to himself as a nigger (nigga', whatever).

Says who, you?  And what is it that gives you such insight into their psyche that you know what they "want" to be?  If they adopt some style of clothing or speech, present as it is in pop culture, why do you make this a racial reference?[/quote]

Plenty of people. The onus would be on you to prove they don't want that.

Nigger has lost its value as an extremely negative term due to so many blacks calling each other niggers.

... even though the only people I've ever seen to claim that are overt racists attempting to explain away their own use of the term.  I have to say this is news to me; the word was sufficient to cause scandal only recently.  Again the appeal to "what black people do" is part of the stock racist formula.[/quote]

Nah, it's just that it's complete hypocrisy to say only one race can use a certain term. Saying non-blacks can't use nigger strikes me as being, you know, "racist".

Everyone knows what a wigger is. The example shows taking being a wigger one step further.

Well actually its an Americanism, so not every one knows what it is.  And it is clearly a term of abuse, intended as such, and which intends to do so by drawing an allusion to race.  Seems pretty unequivocal to me.
[/quote]

Everyone's familiar with American pop culture if they have access to American TV. Which is pretty much any market that would have access to RPGs.

[Monkeys]

hi I'm writing a sci fi rpg called operator which you may have read about above and I made a joke at one point and it occurs to me that it might be offensive.  All though I am trying to write an edgy rpg it worries me that some people may not have a sense of humor...what do you think about this exerpt?

Race and Age can be altered at will and have become fashion statements.  We've all heard the term wigger from the days when white people used to pretend to be black.  Well now through the miracles of gene therapy they can actually become black!

When people are asked what 'wigger' means, they usually say "it means a white kid who wants to be black."

The thing is that the people who are referred to haven't said they want to be black.

It's a conclusion drawn from the fact of them wearing 'hip hop' clothes and listening to that music.

Imagine a genie appeared to a 'wigger' and said "congratulations, you're now Albert Pemberton, a 45 year old black insurance salesman from Kansas City".

I don't think anyone would seriously argue that the 'wigger' would have gotten what he wanted.

In other words, these kids don't want to be black: they want to be 50 Cent, or whoever's the equivalent at the time.

People of that age could generally be argued to 'want to be' some adult idol. In a typical class you might have a few who 'want to be 50 Cent', a couple who 'want to be Marilyn Manson', several who 'want to be Jennifer Aniston', and so on.

Each ambition seems equally unattainable. There's very little difference between wanting to be 50 Cent despite being white, and wanting to be Jennifer Aniston despite not 'looking right'. In both cases they're biologically 'locked out' - actually the idea of a white gangsta rapper is a lot more likely than an 'ugly' leading actress or a thin football player.

However, wanting to be Jennifer Aniston is considered normal: there's no special insulting name for it.

In other words, the word 'wigger' assumes that race is much more important than any other possible difference that could exist between a 13 year old and their hero - more important than looks, intelligence, athletic ability, musical talent etc.

And I don't see how you can assume that race is the most important factor there is, and not be racist.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I'm moderating now.

Migo, do not respond to provocative posting here. I moderated Gareth's post to you - that means you are to back off and not escalate. That exchange is over - you do not get the right to the last word or anything like that.

The discussion also seems to have tipped over into a typical internet set of opinions about racism and wiggers. There are hundreds, if not thousands of venues for anyone to hold forth about such things. Go to one of them for that purpose. Do not use the Forge for it.

This thread is about a person's idea for his game. That's what we discuss here. Relevant aspects of racism or whatever can be factored in, but they are not, themselves, at issue at this site.

This thread may only continue if the next post is from Limejello. No one else is to post until then.

Best, Ron