funny or racist?

[contracycle]

What definition of racist are we working with?

The usually one, the taking of race into account in situations where it is otherwise irrelevant.

A wigger is a white person who wants to behave like the type of black person who freely refers to himself as a nigger (nigga', whatever).

Says who, you?  And what is it that gives you such insight into their psyche that you know what they "want" to be?  If they adopt some style of clothing or speech, present as it is in pop culture, why do you make this a racial reference?

Nigger has lost its value as an extremely negative term due to so many blacks calling each other niggers.

... even though the only people I've ever seen to claim that are overt racists attempting to explain away their own use of the term.  I have to say this is news to me; the word was sufficient to cause scandal only recently.  Again the appeal to "what black people do" is part of the stock racist formula.

Everyone knows what a wigger is. The example shows taking being a wigger one step further.

Well actually its an Americanism, so not every one knows what it is.  And it is clearly a term of abuse, intended as such, and which intends to do so by drawing an allusion to race.  Seems pretty unequivocal to me.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Gareth, ease off the jets, please. If you want to address the points, don't go nose-to-nose with migo, but rather spell out your response for Limejello; he can decide for himself. I want to stress that I am not shutting down your actual points. For what it's worth, I think they're potent.

Limejello, here's something else to think about. The ultimate authority and conscience for this game lies with its author. It's impossible to avoid offending anyone, not if one's topic is relevant to anything important. [You would not believe what people have posted about my game Trollbabe ... I mean, really, crazy talk.] So there's a boundary, but no one knows what it is except for yourself. I think a lot of the posting on this thread is really well-directed to helping you find it, and I look forward to seeing you arrive there.

As a possibly related side question: do you have a working title for the game?

Best, Ron

[Meguey]

hi I'm writing a sci fi rpg called Operator which you may have read about above and I made a joke at one point and it occurs to me that it might be offensive.  All though I am trying to write an edgy rpg it worries me that some people may not have a sense of humor.

If you want Operator to be a game that's conscious of ethnicity issues, or addresses 'race' head-on, or examines what happens when physical appearance is totally malleable and unhinged from genetics, cool, go for it, there's lots of reading and research to do and people willing to point you in good directions (see above). If you want to Operator to be a game where everybody gets the jokes and nobody gets pissed at, that's a whole different thing.

	Logged

[Ron Edwards]

Oops, I missed the working title ... sorry about that.

Best, Ron

[Limejello]

[Justin Nichol - BFG]

Yea, I'm not trying to get all up into arms, but you asked if it would be offensive to some people and it would be (obviously, as it already has been). It's up to you to proceed from that. Honestly, the term wigger is pretty inaccurate and I agree that it's usually used by white people who don't really have any connection with african american subulture. But to "act black" in todays society is to say essentially that a white person is taking part in and is interested in the subculture of hip hop. But hip hop has included whites since it's very beginnings, and damn near every hip hop artist who has offered any meaningful ideas on the subject says that hip hop is for everyone. Wigger is usually used by people with no connection to hip hop to somehow chide something they don't understand. Consider that in many places in Africa, city dwellers have begun to adopt the style of American hip hop artists. They are imitating as much as any suburban white kid, so by extension is it ok to call those Africans something derogatory? That is the problem with acting as though a subculture somehow belongs to a specific ethnicity. Hell, go back far enough and Elvis was a "wigger" and by extension all of us who enjoy rock and roll are just wiggers. Subculture doesn't belong to any race of people.

That said, I like the idea, just not the joke, and not because I'm offended but just because I don't really feel it's particularly witty.

The idea itself (which I approve of) also reminds me of William Gibson's book Neuromancer in which plastic surgery is so common that when the main character encounters someone who is genuinely ugly, they find them intensely interesting looking because beauty is so cheap and common that it's become boring and standard.

I guess it all comes down to the fact that there really is a difference between Doug Stanhope or Lenny Bruce and a racist or sexist joke told over a beer.

[Parthenia]

who wants to behave like the type of black person who freely refers to himself as a nigger (nigga', whatever). Nigger has lost its value as an extremely negative term due to so many blacks calling each other niggers.

I personally find the term nigger extremely offensive, and even more offensive when I hear other black people saying it about each other. Even as a term of endearment. Because then other people think it's okay to call us niggers and that it's no longer an extremely negative term. 

My impression of a wigger is a white person who behaves in a stereotypically "black" manner, which is why I thought it was a weak example. Any white person trying to act like me will come off looking like a big hippie.

I think you are on to an interesting premise in your game, but it needs some research, clarity of terms, and maybe a little less cynicism in the beginning stages of development. I'm all for making people think and be uncomfortable when it comes to issues of race, ethnicity, and dominant cultures.

Julia

[migo]

What definition of racist are we working with?

The usually one, the taking of race into account in situations where it is otherwise irrelevant.

In which case it's not racism here, as when you have the technology to change appearance of race on a genetic level discussion of race is hardly irrelevant.

A wigger is a white person who wants to behave like the type of black person who freely refers to himself as a nigger (nigga', whatever).

Says who, you?  And what is it that gives you such insight into their psyche that you know what they "want" to be?  If they adopt some style of clothing or speech, present as it is in pop culture, why do you make this a racial reference?[/quote]

Plenty of people. The onus would be on you to prove they don't want that.

Nigger has lost its value as an extremely negative term due to so many blacks calling each other niggers.

... even though the only people I've ever seen to claim that are overt racists attempting to explain away their own use of the term.  I have to say this is news to me; the word was sufficient to cause scandal only recently.  Again the appeal to "what black people do" is part of the stock racist formula.[/quote]

Nah, it's just that it's complete hypocrisy to say only one race can use a certain term. Saying non-blacks can't use nigger strikes me as being, you know, "racist".

Everyone knows what a wigger is. The example shows taking being a wigger one step further.

Well actually its an Americanism, so not every one knows what it is.  And it is clearly a term of abuse, intended as such, and which intends to do so by drawing an allusion to race.  Seems pretty unequivocal to me.
[/quote]

Everyone's familiar with American pop culture if they have access to American TV. Which is pretty much any market that would have access to RPGs.

[Monkeys]

	Logged

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I'm moderating now.

Migo, do not respond to provocative posting here. I moderated Gareth's post to you - that means you are to back off and not escalate. That exchange is over - you do not get the right to the last word or anything like that.

The discussion also seems to have tipped over into a typical internet set of opinions about racism and wiggers. There are hundreds, if not thousands of venues for anyone to hold forth about such things. Go to one of them for that purpose. Do not use the Forge for it.

This thread is about a person's idea for his game. That's what we discuss here. Relevant aspects of racism or whatever can be factored in, but they are not, themselves, at issue at this site.

This thread may only continue if the next post is from Limejello. No one else is to post until then.

Best, Ron