I need help on Ability choice for my system

[DracoDruid]

Hi everybody.
I recently got her from a friend of mine and I really hope I will get the inspiration I need at the moment.
Ok off we go:
For years I was planning to make my one nice little system, because non of the published could really give what I searched for.
I dabbled long time with D&D and the Shadowrun System but gave both up some months ago.

So now I am trying to brainstorm, what the system I "dream" of, should be like.
I have several points, but for now I am breaking my head about the set of abilities I want to use.
The abilities shouldn't be neither too brought nor to special.
I.e. Wisdom in D&D is just too all-in-one.

For now I allways come up with 4 "Basic-Abilities": Body, Agility, Mind and Soul/Spirit (haven't found a name for it)
Further more I thought of making two or three Sub-Abilities for each to give characters a bit more differentiation:

And here's the point: Which ones are the the best choice?
My ideas so far (some of them will be packed together, but which one?):

BODY - Strength, Health, Size/Statur, Toughness
AGILITY - Reflexes, (Manual) Dexterity, Mobility, Speed, Grace, Coordination
MIND - Logic, Memory, Wits, Alertness, Creativity
SOUL - Willpower, Resolve, Personality, Charisma

Where to put?: Intuition, Perception,
What did I forget?

[Björn K. Johansson]

Hi!

I am also thinking of using similar abilities in a game I am trying to do (but without the sub abilites).

I would add perception to Mind and Intuition to Soul/Spitit.  Perception goes well I think with a "keen mind". And I think there are big similarites with Alterness and Perception so maybe they would be packed together?

Creativity is something I think could work under Spirit/Soul instead of Mind. 

//Bjorn

[Darcy Burgess]

Hi DracoDruid,

Welcome to the Forge.

If you don't mind, let's back up a second.  What exactly are you trying to do with your game?  What will play look and sound like?  What do the characters do?  What about the players?

Cheers,
Darcy

[DracoDruid]

Ok. But because I am thinking alone and constructing on several sites at the same time,
this question isn't that easly answered.

Basically, the system when finished should be like:
class-/level-free: No such D20-stuff in here, folks!
point-buy: I hate rolling out a character. So my system will be completely point-buy in the character creation/development.
near-realistic: For now, I don't intend to make the characters becoming ridiculous tough and mighty (like D&D),
a super-hero Campaign should be playable with the system, but that should be just an overall power-level adjustment.
Anyway, the player has to decide between specializing and versatility.
thin ruled: Only the very basics should have actual rules. I don't like games which have rules for each and every situation.
world-free (for now): The system should work with most worlds and stories with only a little tweak here and there.

That's the point for now. I am still not sure which way of "dice-rolling" I will use.
a) some sort of D20 (1 die + mods against DC)
b) some sort of Shadowrun (grab lots-o-dice, count successes)
c) a combination of both

That's it for now.

[opsneakie]

Hey DracoDruid,

It sounds like you're trying to get away from the complexity and craziness that is D&D. I've been digging around smaller, less well-known games for the same reason, and I've come to a couple conclusions about it.

I like where no classes/no levels is going, the same with point buy. If you're going for a simple system without a huge pile of rules, I'd suggest going broader with the abilities, not more specific. I played a game called Jovian Chronicles once, which had I think six primary attributes and something like twelve secondary ones, and the whole thing turned out to be a mess of confusion, both for character creation and actual play. I'm not saying secondary abilities / sub-abilities are bad, I just think they tend to complicate the game. Is there really anything wrong with having one ability that governs Physical strength, willpower, and stamina all rolled into one?

Just my .02

john

[Conteur]

I agree with John in that you should use a less complicated subsystem. D&D made it with the 2.5Ed and it turned out very bad (It was nemed Skill and Power or some such)...
However, I would prefer a system where Willpower, Strength and Stamina were not rolled into one. Just because I would not be able to imagine myself (I can lift 50 pounds with efforts but I'm never sick.)
As you defined them, I would combine Alertness and Perception, Dexterity with Grace and Coordination. Finally, Wilpower and Resolve. I find it very hard to imagine one without the other...
There's a fine line between playability and "realism"  in many RPG...
It really depend on the level of believability (or "realism") you want in your game though...

[DracoDruid]

Right, and there's the point.
I want to find a good compromise between this.

One problem I have right now is: What is an ability and what is a skill?
Is Alertness/Perception really an ability?

The Combinations you (Conteur) named, where also in my head and I will update my initial post that way.

[DracoDruid]

Ok. I don't know if I'm too dumb or it's not possible in this forum, but I don't find any "Edit-Button".
So here's the update:


BODY
Statur/Strength/Toughness
Health/Fitness/Vitality

AGILITY
Reflexes/Speed
(Manual) Dexterity/Coordination
Mobility/Grace

MIND
Logic/Memory
Alertness/Perception
Wits/Creativity

SOUL
Willpower/Resolve
Personality/Charisma
Intuition/Empathie
Self assurance/Inner Calm


I can still imagine to merge some of them together, as I already did with BODY.
But now I have 2 Subs for BODY, 3 for AGILITY and MIND and 4 for SOUL.
(I would prefer 8 final abilities instead of 12)

But I must keep an eye on the balance. If one sub-ability has a lot more aspects merged together it would out-run the other.
For example: I could imagine to merge Alertness/Perception and Wits/Creativity into one Ability
but that would let Logic/Memory look quite weak, if there are no more aspects added to them (but I can't find one right now...)

Besides: Is Statur an english word? Meaning: Arnold S. in his best times would have a high Statur - Woody A. instead never had, nor will have.



And again:
What did I forget and must be mentioned?
What did I named but isn't necessary?
Any other pairings that would fit better?
I would also appreciate any additional aspects or just words that are nuances of the ones above.
Perhabs there is an aspect I forgot, but which is tied to one of the above and will be found this way.

[Conteur]

Ok. I don't know if I'm too dumb or it's not possible in this forum, but I don't find any "Edit-Button".
So here's the update:


BODY
Statur/Strength/Toughness
Health/Fitness/Vitality

AGILITY
Reflexes/Speed
(Manual) Dexterity/Coordination
Mobility/Grace

MIND
Logic/Memory
Alertness/Perception
Wits/Creativity

SOUL
Willpower/Resolve
Personality/Charisma
Intuition/Empathie
Self assurance/Inner Calm


I can still imagine to merge some of them together, as I already did with BODY.
But now I have 2 Subs for BODY, 3 for AGILITY and MIND and 4 for SOUL.
(I would prefer 8 final abilities instead of 12)

But I must keep an eye on the balance. If one sub-ability has a lot more aspects merged together it would out-run the other.
For example: I could imagine to merge Alertness/Perception and Wits/Creativity into one Ability
but that would let Logic/Memory look quite weak, if there are no more aspects added to them (but I can't find one right now...)

Besides: Is Statur an english word? Meaning: Arnold S. in his best times would have a high Statur - Woody A. instead never had, nor will have.



And again:
What did I forget and must be mentioned?
What did I named but isn't necessary?
Any other pairings that would fit better?
I would also appreciate any additional aspects or just words that are nuances of the ones above.
Perhabs there is an aspect I forgot, but which is tied to one of the above and will be found this way.

The Edit button doesn't work on the Forge. It's just that way (someone has probably made a mess of thing with it like 'You said that!', 'No, I never said that!' or the like...)
I don't know about Statur. It's not any french, deutsch or english word that I know...
I would consider Self-Assurance in Willpower...
I would also consider Mobility/Grace in Coordination. I never saw an uncoordinated person look graceful...

It's becoming rather good I think...

[Marshall Burns]

DracoDruid,

I have a game called The Rustbelt that I've been working on for quite some time where I wanted to come up with an attribute system from the ground up that was sleek and elegant and where all attributes were equally important (which is, I think, what you're trying to do?  Correct me if I'm wrong?).

This is the solution I came up with, and so far it has worked quite well:

Strength - raw physical power; also affects resistance to damage, due to muscle tone
Constitution - toughness, healthiness; determines resistance to damage, disease, & poison; determines healing rate & endurance
Dexterity - manual skill; important for using tools & equipment (including weapons) with precision
Agility - speed & flexibility
Perception - acuity of the senses & ability to process sensory data; also influences ability to perform in the dark or when one or more senses are disabled
Charisma - ability in personal relations; influences whole range of personal interaction, from trading to charming to impressing to intimidating
Intellect - rational faculty and ability to learn
Cleverness - wits, quick thinking, common sense; savvy, as opposed to the "booksmarts" of intellect
Will - resolve, resilience; determines ability to deal with the terrifying & disturbing (common occurrences in the Rustbelt); also works with magic in the way that Strength works with the physical
Mana - an abstract force, of which luck, talent, and intuition are manifestations.  Functions in the magical arena like Constitution does in the physical

Now, these are equally important (at least according to experiment so far) in the context of my game, but they might not be in yours.  F'rinstance, Charisma in this system might seem to be a bit weak, but in the Rustbelt, which is very harsh and brutal (untimely death is nearly guaranteed), the ability to get good equipment for better prices, hire bodyguards, and talk your way out of conflict is very useful.

As you can see, my solution to my problem is quite similar to what you've already got at this point.  The important thing is to think about what those attributes really mean in the context of the world.  How important is hitting things?  Is it more or less important than noticing things, running fast, or outsmarting people?  Are these things equally important?

I hope this gives you some insight.


Afterthought:  I think the word you are looking for when you say "Statur" would be, in English, "Physique."

[DracoDruid]

That's great!

You're right, physique let me to another german word and this let to the more common an simple word: Build.
That's what I meant all the time. Thank you very much.
Your set of abilities is a very good help, but I think more then 8 abilities is to much.

The following abilities where made up with the following guidelines:
1) The 4 Basic-Abilities every person consists of are: Body, Agility, Mind and Soul.
2) For every of the 4 Basic-abilities: What 2 aspects do people differ most?
3) Which aspects will make the most use in play?
4) Because the Aspects of every Basic-Ability are mostly tied together in reality,
   there may be no large gap in the value of both.


BODY
Physique/Build - Hard bones and thick muscles. Stands for physical strength and Resistance to wounds.
Vitality/Health - Strong Cardiovascular and Immune system. Stands for endurance, resisting poison & diseases and recovering from injury and sickness.
Description: A character with high Physique/Build and low Vitality/Health is strong, tough and build like a rock,
but often gets sick and looses his breath very fast.
A character with high Vitality/Health but low Physique/Build is lank and light but can run for miles.


AGILITY
Dexterity/Legerdemain - Calm hands, nimble fingers and a good hand-eye-coordination. Get your hands and fingers always where you want them to go.
Mobility/Grace - Sure feet and gracile movements. Contains the body's flexibility and overall coordination.
Description: A character with high Dexterity/Legerdemain and low Mobility/Grace will do well at jewelry making and surgery,
but will frequently run into door frames and trip over his own feet.
A character with high Mobility/Grace but low Dexterity/Legerdemain can tumble and dance excellently,
but have troubles tying knots and will have a poor handwriting.


MIND
Intellect/Reason - Raw brain power. Manage and process large amounts of data. Contains Logic, Memory, Concentration and learning capacities.
Alertness/Wits - A quick Mind and good perception/intuition. Important to quickly assess a situation and coming up with the best solution.
Description: A character with high Intellect/Reason and low Alertness/Wits is the stereotypical professor. Able to complete the most complex tasks but always absent-minded and easily confused by new situations.
A character with high Alertness/Wits but low Intellect/Reason is fond with every new situation and will always have a reliable feeling of what's going around,
but lacks the concentration for longer tasks and is soon be bored and nerved.


SOUL
Willpower/Backbone - A strong Will and nerves of steel. Important to overcome shock or keeping a cool head under fire. Resisting physical and mental torment.
Charisma/Influence -  A strong personality that people tend to follow, whether a harsh leader or a sly politician. Letting people do or think what you want them to.
Description: A character with high Willpower/Backbone and low Charisma/Influence has a strong personality and resolve, but people tend to look at him as arrogant or annoying.
A character with high Charisma/Influence but low Willpower/Backbone is charming and popular but will quickly break under pressure.


I think I got my abilities now! Oh I'm so happy!
Thanks to all of you who helped me out.
I will start a new thread soon. This time it's about the dice-mechanics.

Hopefully C YA there!

[Narf the Mouse]

Stature - Why having a knowledge of outdated words is usefull.

[Llogres]

Stature - Why having a knowledge of outdated words is usefull.

Statur is a german word for body type. I guess it also has to do with the wordfamily of statue.

Something to the Topic:
I see a lot of parallels to the  system i want to make here.
I like splitting all the Attributes in two, because i think 8 Attributes are a number that's not to low (if you want to be realistic) and not to high (if you want a playable game)
Good choice on the attributes from my point of view
nothing more to add...

- Llogres

[DracoDruid]

Ok guys I need help!
Everytime I log in, most of the headings vanish leaving only a lot of colons (":") behind.
Furthermore I cannot start a new topic because the button is gone!
Besides, everytime I press the preview button it takes hours to show up, if ever.

Am I the only one with these problems?
Can anybody help me please!
Admins also please!

[DracoDruid]

Ok, that's it.

After sending several pms and emails to several Admins with request and bidding for help, nothing happend at all.

I still have the same problems, I still cannot make any new threads, I still can't see any head-lines.

I don't expect the admins to solve my problems all alone in one minute, but not even answering to me after more than two weeks is just a shame.

I just had to post my experience here, hoping that it will improve this forum for others.

I would have posted this long before in the site discussion, but since I can't post new topics...

So that's it, I am leaving now, deleting my account.

Thanks to all who posted in my first and only topic, you where a real help to me.