Indie Games Relationship Map Project

[Jonathan Walton]

Hey Ron,

Thanks for the data and notes.

My original instinct was to get the authors of finished/published games to talk about their chief influences and then, in turn, track those down to get the influences on those works.  So, for example, Otherkind was mentioned twice as an influence, even though it was never formally finished or published (though it was available on Vincent's website), so I was going to get Vincent's influences for that, to tie it in better.  So far, no one's mentioned Fantasy For Real, Mongrel, or Black Fire, so I didn't think to ask you about those.  Now, it may be that people don't immediately think of them the way they think of, say, Polaris, because they never got released as spiffy looking products.  I'm not sure how to control for that, honestly.  But if you want me to plug those games into the chart to see where they fit in and flesh things out a bit more, we could do that.

Honestly, I view these charts as general sketches of relationships.  In the future, I may try to come back and do a more formal chart with more professional standards for data gathering, like an actual survey with real instructions, allowing folks to rank the amount of influence, allowing authors to code/tag their games in various ways, etc.  But honestly I don't really have the training or time to do that kind of data gathering, crunching, or graphing right now.  Maybe once I start grad school.  So I'm not inclined, at least at present, to spend too much time fine tuning this until it's really perfect.  I don't think the quality of the data would really let me do that.  Maybe next time, though, or maybe this amateur project can inspire someone else to do a better job.

Does that make sense?

[Ron Edwards]

It makes perfect sense, Jonathan, and I`m completely sympathetic to a coarse-focus-first approach. Maybe my post will lead some folks to think about drafts that influenced them as well - never mind mine particularly, just as a concept in general, because I do think we all have a tendency to forget about them.

Best, Ron

[lumpley]

Otherkind (May 2002, draft)
Tim Denee's Our Frustration (nee Punk)
Paul Czege's The World, the Flesh, and the Devil
Ron Edwards' Elfs
Ars Magica

In a Wicked Age (to be published)
Ron Edwards' Sorcerer, especially Sorcerer & Sword
Ron Edwards' Trollbabe
Matt Wilson's Primetime Adventures
The Dying Earth rpg
My own Cheap & Cheesy Fantasy Game

Hungry, Desperate & Alone (Jan 2002, draft)
Scott Knipe's Lapdogs
...Damn, I can't remember what else. The threads here on the Forge aren't helping me. Anybody who was there remember where the fashion for rules like "every time you and the NPC are apart, roll dice equal to your Intimacy, minus the NPC's Pain.  On a success, the NPC has a sudden terrible realization about you and gets +1 Horror" came from?

-Vincent

[lumpley]

Add Zak Arntson's Metal Opera and Jared Sorensen's InSpectres to Otherkind.

In a Wicked Age's list will grow, grow, grow, when I sit down and compile it for real.

-Vincent

[Nev the Deranged]

Hungry, Desperate & Alone (Jan 2002, draft)
Scott Knipe's Lapdogs
...Damn, I can't remember what else. The threads here on the Forge aren't helping me. Anybody who was there remember where the fashion for rules like "every time you and the NPC are apart, roll dice equal to your Intimacy, minus the NPC's Pain.  On a success, the NPC has a sudden terrible realization about you and gets +1 Horror" came from?

That sounds like some Czege goodness to me... MLwM & Bacchanal...

[Jonathan Walton]

Yeah, Nev, but Hungry inspired MLWM, that's why.

[matthijs]

How published is published?

Here are some of my games from the

	Logged

Ron Edwards Re: Indie Games Relationship Map Project Hi Jonathan, Another quick note/correction: Puppetland was written by John Tynes as you said, but Risus was written by S. John Ross. Best, Ron Logged

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Jonathan,

Another quick note/correction: Puppetland was written by John Tynes as you said, but Risus was written by S. John Ross.

Best, Ron

[Jonathan Walton]

Thanks, Ron.  Too many Johns in this industry.

[M. J. Young]

Eleanor's Dream - my current primary project, influenced by Polaris, MLwM and Multiverser.

Wow--I influenced someone who impresses me. That's flattering.

Any predictions as to when I can see a copy of Eleanor's Dream, and any chance you might satisfy my curiosity concerning the nature of the influence--what it was about Multiverser that impacted your design?

Thanks.

--M. J. Young

[Eero Tuovinen]

I'm kinda surprised that Multiverser hasn't made an impression on more people (that I know of, I mean). Sure, it's weird, extreme and "bigoted" in its own charming way, and difficult to play, but the vision is very unique and compelling, at least to me, and the effort and attention to detail is astounding. Many people have frustration dreams about playing Burning Wheel, Riddle of Steel or Sorcerer, as they feel trapped by the strenuous requirements of the game that go over their personal means, while they would strongly desire to play; I have those attacks whenever I happen to consider playing Multiverser, which would be truly magnificent if I wasn't overwhelmed by the heavy rules system and the social requirements of keeping a group together long enough for the emergent campaign arc to form. I didn't actually think about the Multiverser influence for a long time when I started doing Eleanor, but later on I found it obvious in many ways:

• While "playing yourself" in a roleplaying game comes up now and then in different games, Eleanor's reasoning for why it is done, and how it is done, comes from Multiverser.
• Having a multitude of intricately prepared settings where the character comes and goes as an outsider who need not fear death is... well, yes.
• I can't say if this is influence, but looking at it in retrospective, both Multiverser and Eleanor concern themselves with character growth, presumably towards maturity. Eleanor is a bit more outspoken about it, of course.

The Multiverser influence is pretty obvious when I say that for the longest time I thought that Eleanor was going to be a simulationistic game, just because Multiverser had stricken me so strongly in that regard. The mechanical approach is completely opposite (as I mentioned, I can't swallow Multiverser's mechanics, and I doubt my 8-year old target audience could either), but in spirit Multiverser is the closest influence for Eleanor's Dream, I think.

As for when Eleanor's going to be finished, let's put it this way: if I lived in the US, it would have been at the Ashcan Front at Gencon. I haven't actually worked on the game this year (did my small zombie game instead), but the break has done it good; I'm pretty positive that whenever I get around to a solid stretch of work, especially with my artist backing me, the game will be done then. Next year for certain, assuming my game design bug doesn't lay down and die. After that it's a matter of motivation and whatnot when I might get the game translated for the English market - I've been making it mostly with the Finnish audience in mind, so I haven't worried about anything further yet.