Question - Clarifying re Keeping the Reversed Blow Die

[zornwil]

Okay, so a question came up in play and we weren't positive about this - if for whatever reason after Reversing the Blow I do NOT want to use that die on my next Raise (like, maybe I rolled 2 way better dice), can I just discard that die and substitute it?  Or MUST I keep that die and am compelled to use it on my Raise?

In play, we ruled that you could discard and substitute it.  We felt that way in being consistent with the rule stated on these boards that if you needed a bigger die to effectively See you could set aside the die and use a different one, though in that case you keep the die for the Raise.  We figured it's keeping in spirit with that notion of substitution, though we further felt that it wasn't fair to just keep that die indefinitely, that when your Raise came if you didn't use it, you lose it.

But wondering what the "official" thought is?  Thanks in advance.

[lumpley]

Official rule is, you have to use it. Occasionally I've seen this mean that someone reverses with a huge die when a small die's all that's required.

-Vincent

[zornwil]

What took so long to answer?    Seriously, okay, thanks very much, then that's good to know from a strategy sense - if someone has a suck hand, one thing you can do is force them to Reverse the Blow, such as put forward a 1 on a Raise, then they have no choice as they can't put forward 2 dice, and so they're tied down to, for example, a best dice of 6 in their hand, so even if they roll better in subsequent events until their Raise they're stuck. 

[zornwil]

PS - this might be unduly "lifting your skirt," so feel free to decline to comment, but curious if there's a specific rationale?  I can see it from a story sense, in that one can do a sacrifice maneuver to force a Reversal and then do a come-back later in a sense by predicting in part what the opponent's Raise will be, but that's just my guess.  Just curious, if you have time and don't mind commenting.  If not, I certainly understand.

[lumpley]

Huh. I never really thought about it.

I suppose that just throwing away your reversing die and raising with two fresh dice wouldn't break anything, and it'd still be a more efficient use of your dice than throwing away two for a block or dodge.

-Vincent

[Ben Lehman]

Huh. I never really thought about it.

I suppose that just throwing away your reversing die and raising with two fresh dice wouldn't break anything, and it'd still be a more efficient use of your dice than throwing away two for a block or dodge.

-Vincent

...

I kinda disagree with this.

The effect of the reversed blow is that your next hit *has* to be big. That's cool, because it feeds into the escalating intensity of Dogs conflicts.

yrs--
--Ben

[David Artman]

I'm confused:

...if someone has a suck hand, one thing you can do is force them to Reverse the Blow, such as put forward a 1 on a Raise, then they have no choice as they can't put forward 2 dice, and so they're tied down...

1) How do you put forward a 1 on a Raise, when you must use two (and only two) dice to Raise? (Fair enough, if you want to just say, "Whoops," and revise to read "put forward a 2.")
2) Why can't they put forward two dice to See... or, hell, ten dice? I though there was no limit on the number of dice with which you may See, as long as you are willing to take a fistful of Fallout?
3) What stops the other person from putting forward a single 2-value die and Reversing your Raise? It seems that all you're getting in this setup is your Reversal, your weak Raise, and then their easy Reversal--you've done nothing but "dump" a weak die (1) or dice (two 1s) just to open yourself up to an easy Reversal.

Help?
David

[zornwil]

I'm confused:

...if someone has a suck hand, one thing you can do is force them to Reverse the Blow, such as put forward a 1 on a Raise, then they have no choice as they can't put forward 2 dice, and so they're tied down...

1) How do you put forward a 1 on a Raise, when you must use two (and only two) dice to Raise? (Fair enough, if you want to just say, "Whoops," and revise to read "put forward a 2.")

After Lending a Die, you only can Raise with 1 die.

Our group uses Lending a Die a lot.

2) Why can't they put forward two dice to See... or, hell, ten dice? I though there was no limit on the number of dice with which you may See, as long as you are willing to take a fistful of Fallout?

Sure, granted, and that's part of why I asked - because if I don't want to commit myself for a Reversal leading up to having to use the die I put forward, then I would put forward 2 dice, as you say, even though I might have to exceed the other player. 

3) What stops the other person from putting forward a single 2-value die and Reversing your Raise? It seems that all you're getting in this setup is your Reversal, your weak Raise, and then their easy Reversal--you've done nothing but "dump" a weak die (1) or dice (two 1s) just to open yourself up to an easy Reversal.

Help?
David

Nothing is stopping the other person from putting that forth, I'm not sure if I understand the issue/question in #3?

[JamesDJIII]

re #3 - I would think that you would use the help die when you want to crush someone for sure. I think this would be true when you think you can force them to Give so you won't have suffer their See and subsequent Raise.

Or if you have a more than enough die values that even with a 1 die Raise (because you just lent a die), you figure it will be high enough that other guy can't Reverse that (or doesn't want to for the same reason).

[lumpley]

I agree with Ben in most cases, but in the particular case Wilson wants us to consider - I reverse your raise with a relatively low die (because your raise was really feeble), but by the time it comes around to my raise I'd rather raise with higher dice than the one I used - I think that throwing away the low die and putting forward two higher ones is totally acceptable.

-Vincent

[Noclue]

Seems like you could have just reversed with the high dice and kept it for the raise, getting the same result. A high dice for the raise. Of course, if someone reversed with a low die and then said "Oops, I really shoulda used a bigger die for that. I would just let em swap it out and play on."

[Noclue]

Seems like you could have just reversed with the high dice and kept it for the raise, getting the same result. A high dice for the raise. Of course, if someone reversed with a low die and then said "Oops, I really shoulda used a bigger die for that. I would just let em swap it out and play on."

Vincent, I forgot to add: Is that basically what you are saying?

[lumpley]

Well, I was saying that you have to throw the low die away, you don't get to just pull it back.

But now that you mention it, "doh! I should've put forward this die instead, anybody mind if I switch?" My answer is "I don't mind, go ahead."

-Vincent