Pre-emptive attack too good?

[Brian Leybourne]

Quick opinion poll / thoughts inquiry for those of you who have played TROS yet (or at least mucked about with combat).

Situation - two fighters of equal skill both with sword + shield and no armour (lets say 10CP each). One declares white and one red.

The red guy declares an attack. He's being careful because it's only the first exchange , so he uses 4 dice to attack and saves 6 for exchange 2.

Fighter 2 can now declare his defense, yadda yadda. However, he has the option of attacking instead. Now, stealing initiative is expensive, but who says he needs to - he declares a sim block/strike. To be careful he puts 8 dice into defense and 2 into attack. Doesn't matter that he goes second, because he still gets his block, and it's an almost guaranteed hit on the first guy as long as he doesn't fail his block (8 dice at TN5 versus 4 dice at - probably - TN6 or 7 is no contest really) and he doesn't fluff the attack (2 dice at ATN6/7 means one should probably hit). Probably not a killing blow, but enough to hurt the other guy, and as we all know, the first hit in TROS combat usually decides it.

Evasive attack works just as well, btw.

I've been over this situation trying it out both with a mate of mine with dice, and in the combat sim (v2 will be available in a couple of days, btw, and it has about 20 different weapons, all the maneuvers, armour, double attacks, initiative stealing, etc etc - but I digress) and the result is pretty clear that the defender who attacks instead of defending (as long as he has armour or a decent shield) wins the combat almost every time, because he has the chance to defend as well as attacking, but the attacker didn't. The attacker basically has no defense against this tactic except passive defense i.e. wearing armour.

Yes, you could allow the attacker to declare an evasive attack or sim block/strike just in case, but that eats up dice and the defender just wouldn't do it that round. Not really a solution. Likewise luck dice can help, but you only get a few per entire session.

Any thoughts?

[Bob Richter]

Quick opinion poll / thoughts inquiry for those of you who have played TROS yet (or at least mucked about with combat).

Situation - two fighters of equal skill both with sword + shield and no armour (lets say 10CP each). One declares white and one red.

The red guy declares an attack. He's being careful because it's only the first exchange , so he uses 4 dice to attack and saves 6 for exchange 2.

Fighter 2 can now declare his defense, yadda yadda. However, he has the option of attacking instead. Now, stealing initiative is expensive, but who says he needs to - he declares a sim block/strike. To be careful he puts 8 dice into defense and 2 into attack. Doesn't matter that he goes second, because he still gets his block, and it's an almost guaranteed hit on the first guy as long as he doesn't fail his block (8 dice at TN5 versus 4 dice at - probably - TN6 or 7 is no contest really) and he doesn't fluff the attack (2 dice at ATN6/7 means one should probably hit). Probably not a killing blow, but enough to hurt the other guy, and as we all know, the first hit in TROS combat usually decides it.

Evasive attack works just as well, btw.

I've been over this situation trying it out both with a mate of mine with dice, and in the combat sim (v2 will be available in a couple of days, btw, and it has about 20 different weapons, all the maneuvers, armour, double attacks, initiative stealing, etc etc - but I digress) and the result is pretty clear that the defender who attacks instead of defending (as long as he has armour or a decent shield) wins the combat almost every time, because he has the chance to defend as well as attacking, but the attacker didn't. The attacker basically has no defense against this tactic except passive defense i.e. wearing armour.

Yes, you could allow the attacker to declare an evasive attack or sim block/strike just in case, but that eats up dice and the defender just wouldn't do it that round. Not really a solution. Likewise luck dice can help, but you only get a few per entire session.

Any thoughts?

My thoughts run along these lines: A guy who throws red has already comitted himself to a messy death if he doesn't kill with the first stroke...so that's what he will try to do.

Have your red-thrower toss all ten dice into his initial attack and see how that changes it.

But there's a reason tRoS STRONGLY recommends the white die.

[Jaif]

So don't do a weak first attack.  Attack with 9 dice, saving one for the next exchange.  Go for the lower leg or arms to get the bonus.

-Jeff

[Lance D. Allen]

As I understand it, you canNOT attack if you threw white unless you use the Buying Initiative option. This only applies to the first exchange of blows following initiative, however, and beyond that you can choose to attack or block as you wish. Remember, however, that if you do get nailed, you're likely to go down... and in a case like you described (only not on the first EoB after init)I would make any penalties due to getting hit apply to the dice spent on the strike before those which sit uncommitted in the pool.

That'll make someone think twice about splitting attack and defense.. It's a nice maneuver, but it's a gamble.. I did it once, and died because of it, but another time took the advantage because of it.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Brian,

This thread has some comments from me about the pre-emptive attack, from a slightly different perspective:
The Riddle o'Steel 'n' me.

Best,
Ron

[Psychopompous]

Quick opinion poll / thoughts inquiry for those of you who have played TROS yet (or at least mucked about with combat).

Situation - two fighters of equal skill both with sword + shield and no armour (lets say 10CP each). One declares white and one red.

The red guy declares an attack. He's being careful because it's only the first exchange , so he uses 4 dice to attack and saves 6 for exchange 2.

Fighter 2 can now declare his defense, yadda yadda. However, he has the option of attacking instead. Now, stealing initiative is expensive, but who says he needs to - he declares a sim block/strike. To be careful he puts 8 dice into defense and 2 into attack. Doesn't matter that he goes second, because he still gets his block, and it's an almost guaranteed hit on the first guy as long as he doesn't fail his block (8 dice at TN5 versus 4 dice at - probably - TN6 or 7 is no contest really) and he doesn't fluff the attack (2 dice at ATN6/7 means one should probably hit). Probably not a killing blow, but enough to hurt the other guy, and as we all know, the first hit in TROS combat usually decides it.

Evasive attack works just as well, btw.

I've been over this situation trying it out both with a mate of mine with dice, and in the combat sim (v2 will be available in a couple of days, btw, and it has about 20 different weapons, all the maneuvers, armour, double attacks, initiative stealing, etc etc - but I digress) and the result is pretty clear that the defender who attacks instead of defending (as long as he has armour or a decent shield) wins the combat almost every time, because he has the chance to defend as well as attacking, but the attacker didn't. The attacker basically has no defense against this tactic except passive defense i.e. wearing armour.

Yes, you could allow the attacker to declare an evasive attack or sim block/strike just in case, but that eats up dice and the defender just wouldn't do it that round. Not really a solution. Likewise luck dice can help, but you only get a few per entire session.

Any thoughts?

I've found that a weak first attack is almost always a bad thing. It leaves you vulnerable to a counter, and has a fairly high probability of giving your opponent the initiative. On top of that, I have found it difficult to inflict much of a wound without 4+ dice more than my opponent (might have something to do with all the high-toughness characters... we like playing in Stahl for some reason).

Throwing defense is almost always a good idea, I've seen three fights where players almost died because they threw attack. Several NPCs HAVE died because they threw attack, and for that reason alone (a certain Gol captain comes to mind).

Also, Simultaneous Block/Strike is an offensive maneuver... it cannot be used if you declare defense.

-Psychopompous

[Valamir]

Is this realistic?  Shouldn't there be more of a feeling out period, an initial probing and testing of defenses before a character should feel confident in launching an all out attack?

[Jake Norwood]

Is this realistic?  Shouldn't there be more of a feeling out period, an initial probing and testing of defenses before a character should feel confident in launching an all out attack?

Absolutely. When I fight in TROS, I rarely go all out to start. I throw a little attack, saving lots for defense, just to see how big their CP is, so that I can wisely allot dice. Depending on how you run it, an aggressive opening can be very lethal, but you have to play your cards right (just like for real).

Jake

[Valamir]

So given the comments by Bob and Jaif and Psycho above, which seem to indicate weak (i.e. low dice) first attacks are a mistake...what are they missing...

[Bankuei]

If you want to go for a quick kill, and hopefully, your opponent doesn't have a larger CP pool than you, blitz attacks are a gamble you may want to take.  On the other hand, if your opponent has a better DTN than your ATN, a bigger pool, and Counter, you're in trouble.  

Say I drop 8 dice on the attack, and my opponent puts 9 on the defense, and still pays for the counter.  No matter how little they had left, if they successfully block it, then they get 8 dice back at me on the next exchange!  

Can you get wasted on red?  Sure, but there are a few tricks that will help you do it...

•Manuever...if both of you are throwing red, it may not hurt to take high ground, work your way around some debris, a chair, or a table...
•Diversion...toss something, bat it at your opponent, use intimidate, acting to act like something is important over there that you're looking at, etc.
•Get your opponent to hesistate... In real life, that's what the circling is about... that one moment the other person's attention slips, and you slide in.  Of course, this is less likely to happen in RoS simply because the concentration involved in real life is way more intense than throwing dice...

Chris

[Brian Leybourne]

No, none of you (except maybe Jake) understood my point.

You can declare sim block/strike on defense, because a valid defense is an attack. You can then try to steal initiative, but you're not forced to, as long as you're happy to take the hit from the other guy first. This isn't a biggie if you have a defense (via sim b/s or evasive attack) and he doesn't. Essentially, the other guy is screwed. And not necessarily because he threw a red - the defender could do it at any point in the combat, even after several rounds of back-and-forth strikes between them.

My point is that at any point of any combat, the attacker is screwed if the defender wants, because he just has an attack, while the "defender" can also be attacking (not red/red but just because attack is a valid defense), and has defensive dice as well as attacking ones. And that goes for no matter how many dice the attacker does or does not spend - if he goes light, the defender can do this trick. If he goes heavy, the defender just defends and doesn't, but going heavy every time you have an attack is suicide because it's starving yourself of defense dice for the next exchange if the defender takes initiative (by blocking you, or whatever). As the book says "attack conservatively, defend rigourously" (or words to that effect).

[Brian Leybourne]

Say I drop 8 dice on the attack, and my opponent puts 9 on the defense, and still pays for the counter.  No matter how little they had left, if they successfully block it, then they get 8 dice back at me on the next exchange!

Just a quick side point - he would only get 8 dice back if you got 8 successes - he gets one die per attacker success, not one per attacker die. But otherwise, yes I agree Counter is nasty.

Brian.

[Psychopompous]

Is this realistic?  Shouldn't there be more of a feeling out period, an initial probing and testing of defenses before a character should feel confident in launching an all out attack?

Absolutely. When I fight in TROS, I rarely go all out to start. I throw a little attack, saving lots for defense, just to see how big their CP is, so that I can wisely allot dice. Depending on how you run it, an aggressive opening can be very lethal, but you have to play your cards right (just like for real).

Jake

I wasn't (necessarily) suggesting that you go all-out on your first attack, but weak attacks don't help. Actually, I like throwing 8-die attacks... That way, if you have every reason to believe I'm an archetypical guard (which I've made some characters that you reallistically should) it seems like I'm going all-out, when I've really saved 4-6 dice for later.
If your character throws a weak attack at my character, I will put up a similarly weak defense (normally, actually usually a little stronger, calculated to give me good odds of taking the initiative), and you gain almost nothing. Alternately, I could go for a counter if I think I have the combat pool (and If I do, you have a serious problem... if not, yeah...).
As I run through scenarios in my head the guy with the lower combat pool has a serious problem no matter what, and if you have similar combat pools, going all-out is advantages.
And this isn't just drawn from scenarios I'm thinking over (I DO like to calculate odds, though), I've seen several fights go down, including the miraculous death of a Gol captain who was stupid enough to throw attack... He didn't go all-out, but he still died at the hands of a PC with a lower combat pool.

Of course duels between starting-level characters reduce the entire uncertainty factor... I know you can't possibly have a CP higher than 15, so I can calculate the odds from there... Any character I make with a CP lower than 12 fights dirty, while the higher CP characters are normally duelists.

Between developed characters CPs can vary a lot more... and probing might be useful :)

-Psychopompous

[Jake Norwood]

I think this thread is showing some of what I've been saying all along...there's a lot of ways to play the odds and strategies in TROS combat, much to a Gamist's delight, and most of us haven't even scratched the surface. I came up with what I thought to be a flawless attack strategy which worked a dozen times (I used it to kill two players, even, but their deaths were important to the story)...until it got broken by something I didn't see coming. For the record, agressive fighters seem to do very well for a few fights, then the aggression ends up being their deaths. This was true of the Germanic hordes vs. the Romans, as I understand it, and is certainly true in what I've seen of IRL sparring. I am a pretty defensive fighter IRL. Sure, I initiate attack sometimes, but usually to lure so that I can defend, counter, or whatever. And I'm very hard to beat. I think there's something there. We've got another guy who is definitely my superior in the element of attack, but my defense and counter-techniques are very good, and he only sometimes beats me. I've got him about 70% of the time or more...and he's in much better shape than I am, with 2 blackbelts and a Free-scholarship (the same WMA rank I carry). I'm not bragging, but showing that this really is the way it works.

Jake

[Psychopompous]

I think this thread is showing some of what I've been saying all along...there's a lot of ways to play the odds and strategies in TROS combat, much to a Gamist's delight, and most of us haven't even scratched the surface. I came up with what I thought to be a flawless attack strategy which worked a dozen times (I used it to kill two players, even, but their deaths were important to the story)...until it got broken by something I didn't see coming. For the record, agressive fighters seem to do very well for a few fights, then the aggression ends up being their deaths. This was true of the Germanic hordes vs. the Romans, as I understand it, and is certainly true in what I've seen of IRL sparring. I am a pretty defensive fighter IRL. Sure, I initiate attack sometimes, but usually to lure so that I can defend, counter, or whatever. And I'm very hard to beat. I think there's something there. We've got another guy who is definitely my superior in the element of attack, but my defense and counter-techniques are very good, and he only sometimes beats me. I've got him about 70% of the time or more...and he's in much better shape than I am, with 2 blackbelts and a Free-scholarship (the same WMA rank I carry). I'm not bragging, but showing that this really is the way it works.

Jake

You have good points and I acknowlge your superior fighting experience (I don't have any formal training, and the sparring that I've done is not the greatest track record one could hope for), but I have seriously looked at how the combat rules in TRoS work.
Nowhere did I say that attack was a good way to start or fight, nor did I say that agressive fighters lived a long time. I very much favor defensive fighting, but you can't win a fight without attacking, and when you attack (from what I've seen in TRoS) it had better count.

-Psychopompous