My magic system

[SarimRune]

Hi there.  Well, I posted this on RPG.net but didn't get a lot of feedback.  I'm hoping for a little more here.  

 Maybe I should say, long time lurker, first time poster.  Anyway, I've looking fer advise and this looks like the place to get some.  

Thanks in advance.  


Magic System


Yeah, you've read about a dozen of these.  Likely more than a dozen.  But still, this is my shot at it.  

   I've worked on and off on a magic system for years now.  I've got some legal issues with the setting for these mages but I'm pretty sure that I can work around it.  
   Basically the setting is 5 minutes into the future Mages.  If you've ever seen Demon City Shinjuku and/or Silent Mobius, then you likely know the feel of the world that I (and a partner) were going for.  Don't think Cybernetics or flying cars.  But PDA are as common as watch, computerized ID cards, cashless society, corporations have a stronger control over society, etc.  Basically an 'upgraded' world than we have today.  Technology isn't so much ruling our society as it is saturating our society.
   
   So.  Mages.  'k.  Here's part of the system.  I don't have a core rule at the moment.  I had a single d10 based system that worked but I need to refine it.  
   One of the fundamental thoughts comes from the Books of Magic series in which Merlin turns to Timothy Hunter and says, "Everything magic buys must be paid for."  (of course, I've yet to completely implement this).



First there are three levels of magic (and beings for that matter):
Minor - Humans level.  Minor magics simulate anything that a human can do without any aid.  
Major - Beyond human level.  Major magics simulate anything that a human cannot possible do or cannot do without some form of aid.
Primal - Godlike level.  Primal magics break all the rules, like bringing the dead to life and destroying cities.  As a note, Primal magic takes longer to do and always draws the attention of other mages and Primal beings.  A Primal being will almost always interfere with Primal magic.  

   Now the special effect of magic doesn't matter.  You can have the magic looks like almost anything you want.  
   You can kill or hurt somebody with your bare hands.  Thus such acts are in the realm of Minor magics.  So if you wanted to use Minor magic to harm another person, it could appear as a ball of fire, it could appear as a ghost choking them, it could appear as a dog attacking them.  Whatever.  The special effect doesn't really matter.  
   You cannot 'heal' another person without some help.  You could, at best staunch bleeding or set a broken bone (Minor magic).  But to fix a knife wound you need to clean it and stitch it up and stop the bleeding (Major magic).  It could look like you place glowing hands on their wound or it could look like you give them a potion to drink.  Again, the special effect doesn't matter.
   The benefit of magic is that it can break some of the rules because you have leeway with special effects.  

Minor magic examples
   It is possible for a human to stun, hurt or kill another person without aid.  So magic can do the trick with magic even extending the distance by a little (like a fully room).
   It is possible to survive even long falls.  So magic can allow a mage (or their ally) the luck/strength to survive even a great fall.
   A human can land an airplane.  So magic can help a mage land an airplane safely.  
   
Major magic examples
   A human cannot fly.  So Major magics can make a human fly.
   A human cannot breath underwater.  So major magics can make a human breath water.
   A human cannot kill a rhino with their bare hands (well, I suppose it could be argued).  So major magics can stun, harm, or kill more powerful beings.
   A human cannot control the weather.  But major magics can.


   
   The idea of this magic system was to simulate real world beliefs.  Of course there are flashy effects and so forth.
There are two types of magic:
Theurgy - Which is magic performed by the petitioning of 'divine' beings.  Magic is much easier to wield but has a high price.
Thaumaturgy - Which is magic performed solely by the Mage.  Magic is more difficult to wield and has a powerful drain, but the price for it is paid right away.  

There are three ways to cast magic (either type):
Spells - A spell is magic at it's most basic.  It's quick and dirty magic.  It also has a high drain and sometimes a high price.  It is difficult to wield because everything is rushed.  The energies are summoned up quickly, then pushed out just as quick.  Theurgy magic and spells don't mix too well.  Thaumaturgy is better with spells.  Spells can cast Minor magics.  They can cast Major magics but that's even more difficult.

Rituals - A ritual is the core of magic.  A character follows a series of actions which helps them concentrate on the task at hand.  Rituals can take 10 minutes to 10 hours, depending on how powerful the effect is.  Rituals can cast Minor magics easily and Major magics with some difficulty.  The major benefit is that energies are summoned up slower and then released just as slow.  The drain isn't as much and often there are more certain effects.  A ritual done properly rarely fails.  

Ceremonies - A Ceremony is magic at it's strongest.  A character follows a more elaborate set of actions to help them build more power and a stronger effect.  A Ceremony can take many days to perform in full.  Ceremonies can cast Major magics easily and can attempt Primal magics.


There are several parts to any 'spell' (I use the term spell, but it applies to all three ways to cast magic).

Remembrance
   Your character must remember how to properly use Gestures and Incantations for this spell.  For Rituals and Ceremonies, this is a little easier because you have more time to study it and can often read from books and scrolls.  For spells, however, you're character needs to a Remembrance roll to see if they can get everything right.  This roll would be entirely optional as you don't need to use Gestures or Incantations (they make casting easier for you but more obvious for others to see what you're doing).  

Summoning/Drain
   Your character now needs to summon the eldritch energy that is magic.  Such raw eldritch energy is volatile and dangerous.  You can summon it personal (Thaumaturgy) or through a higher being (Theurgy).  
   Normally in the system you roll a single die to see if you're successful.  
   For summoning you can attempt to roll multiple dice.  Each success offers you more power that you summon up.  More power allows you to overwhelm an opponent more easily.
   However you'll also have to apply those successes against your Physical Threshold to represent the drain.  If you attempt to summon up too much power, you may end up draining your character (think nosebleeds, headaches, sores, etc).  Basically you wrack your body with raw energies and this causes some fatigue.   (Theurgy magic gets a bonus to the roll because you're receiving the power as a 'gift' from a higher being).  
   Now that fatigue is important because they can cause problems for the next stage.  

Focus
   Finally your character must direct the magic to do the bidding of your will.  This is a simple step where your character makes a roll.  If you succeed, then you wield the eldritch energies to your desire and the spell goes into effect.  If you fail...well, basically you lose control of the eldritch energies and whatever you wanted does darn near close to the opposite.  
   This stage is the most critical and the most dangerous.  If say you cast a spell to kill an opponent and you failed the Focus roll.  Well, now you just cast a spell that tries to kill you.  This is why a mage most often casts more reasonable spells like trying to harm or stun an opponent.  
   If you summon up lots of energy, and are drained by it (most likely), then the Focus will be more difficult.  

Defence
   The target of the spell gets to make a defence roll against the spell.  They must roll against the number of dice that the mage gathered in the Summoning.  If the Focus fails, then the mage themselves must roll against the power that they themselves summoned.  


   So there are the four parts of spell casting.  
   There are a lot more rolls to do with magic than say a standard skill, but the point is that magic is supposed to be involved.  Every spell takes a lot more consideration so it was allowed to have a more detailed set of rolls.  The rest of the system is decided by a single roll based on skill.  Combat is a bit more involved than a single roll.  

   The last part of the magic system is the little details that can be used to make your magic more potent or easier.  These are elements of magic that are used to help Summon the energy and keep a mage Focused.
   
Tribute - Tribute is a small immediate price to be paid from magic.  Some mages call this the drain of magic, because if there isn't any other form of Tribute offered, then the mage must give it from their own body.  
   Tribute is a dangerous part of magic because a mage can be drained from a spell if they aren't careful.
Gestures - Focus (and Power sometimes)
Incantations - Focus (and Power sometimes)
Proper Clothing - Focus
Sanctum - Focus
Tools - Focus (and Power sometimes)
Obedience - Obeying the laws of magic allows a person to have more power.  

   A mage obviously gets a fair amount of focus during a ritual because a typical ritual is done within their Sanctum, with their special robes, special tools, gestures and incantations.  It should be noted that using any of those four elements for any other purpose than magic dilutes their effect.  
   Your Proper Clothing, for example, can be anything.  The actual garment isn't important.  What IS important is that it is used exclusively for when you work with magic.  If you wear your robes anywhere else, then you dilute them.  
   If you set up a TV in your Sanctum, it'll dilute the Sanctum.  
   Etc, etc.  Gestures and Incantations are the only two things that are time honored traditions which are really really hard to dilute.  

   Well, that's the system in a nutshell.  Although it looks long, it actually doesn't get too much more complex than I've detailed it.  The only other thing to deal with is the long term price (Theurgy carries a higher long term price than Thaumaturgy).  
   The system, as you may have guessed, it entirely freeform (and I really do mean that).  The mage can decide what they want to do, the Storyguide figures out what level of magic it would be and the character decides how he's going to go about doing it.  The more a character wants to do, the more risk they are taking (since a failed Focus roll means you basically smash yourself with your own spell).  Other mages can attempt to reflect your spell back at you of course.  


Any feedback would be welcome.  Does it work?  Any major problems with it?  Any questions?

[Bailywolf]

You have a nice paradigm for magic here- but I need some more details to see how it plays out.  Can you give me a lowdown on the system itself?  How does it graph out via the conventional GNS?  I do seriously dig seperating the intent/effect of the magic from the FX- many systems get hung up on the 'goshwow' and loose track of what the spell actualy does...

Your magic catagories are elegant and quite neat.  A human could pick a lock- or reinforce a door.  A human could lift another person off the ground- or smash him into a vending machine.  A human could not lift a car.  Nice.  I also like the 'blow the top off' quality of Primal magics- more systems should put this kind of big-guns power in the hands of PC's.  Sorcerer does this...Amber does this...few others do.  It is a good thing.

Your staged magic resolution system makes me go hmmmmmmm though.  I generaly hate multi-layered gme processes intended to esentialy determine a single game event- whether magic works or not.  What are the actual mechanics involved?  A single die roll (or whatever) or many/a series of die rolls?  Could you use a single-stage resolution, then interpret the results based on side-line factors (example: reading the dice in multipe ways...adding them for success/failure, comparing margin of success, looking at numbe rof odd/even dice, using dice of differing colors etc).

Simply, please tell more about the background mechanics.  

Magic systems are one of my favorite bits of system to monkey with, and I'd love to help out.

[Bailywolf]

Oh!  Another question...

What abotu servitors?  

You have Thaumaturgy- calling upon one's own inner magical reserves (perhaps Hermetics might be a more acurate descriptor here?).

You have Theurgy- calling upon the force of Primal beings (the Chrimson bands of Cytonack come forth!)

What about something in between?  What about a demon cat?  A King of Blades? A shadow-servent?  What of those middle-of-the-road supernatural creatures mages always seem to suround themselves with?

Might be a neat element of character generation- describe your Servitors.

It was something I loved about the Whispering Vault.

[Mike Holmes]

There are potential problems with discriminating the levels of power.

For instance, I cannot kill a person from across a room, unless I have a tool of some sort (to throw or shoot, whatever). If I have the right tool, I can certainly kill a rhino, or fly. So, what is it that minor magic allows? Does it allow me to kill from across a room? If so, that would imply that magic allows you to simulate effects that a human could produce with tools, but then that opens the door to a lot. With an atomic weapon I *can* destroy cities.

The question becomes really confusing when you consider what counts as a tool or "aid" in your description. We have to assume that the person's own body does not count as aid, but what about air? Without air, a fall from a long distance would be certain to kill you as you acellerate beyond earthly terminal velocity. And the substance impacted has a lot to do with survival as well; better to hit water than concrete. Maybe a better way to state this is to point out that a falling person at terminal velocity cannot do anything themselves to prevent the impact from killing them (even slowing decent with proper form, and landing "correctly" won't help; you need something else). Can a person pick a lock without picks? Probably some few including combination locks, but a good key lock is probably impossible without tools.

So, do you have to touch a person to kill them with minor magic? Given the "range requires aid problem"? Sounds likely given the "no aid" description. Essentially, I can keep on arguing like this until magic is no more than doing the actual thing in question. In which case there is little advantage to magic. Or is the unstated advantage that you can do things at range that you couldn't normally do by employing magic? I am assuming that it allows a character to do things that they *personally* don't know how to do: thus a mage with a Lock Opening spell would be able to open locks despite not otherwise knowing how. This is sort of an advantage except that if you can't do it at range, its no different in any substantive way from just knowing how to pick a lock. Would seem odd to claim that I can't do telekinesis on a paper clip because I as an unaided human cannot lift things at range. Which would require me to touch the paperclip, which would make the magic useless.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Minor has to be defined as something like "Anything that some human can do unaided, but with advantages X, Y, Z". Otherwise it's not different from just having the similar skill. Or it allows for tools which lets in all sorts of otherwise proscribed abilities.

You can just claim that a player is supposed to play by the spirit of the rule, but even then I see a lot of gray areas. Humans can create other humans (naturally, and soon through science), so can they do this magically as well? Does it take nine months to create a human? Or is speed another advantage of Magic? Do I need a male and female Mage, or can one do it alone? Can a female mage do it without a male? Vice versa? Or, IOW, are other people tools for this purpose? Because it certainly should work for Major magic. I'm sure if we think about it that other really powerful effects will come up.

The distinction between Major and Primal is even more gray. We know that you can't destroy cities or raise the dead with major. But obviously it's more powerful than minor which can allow you to kill. So you must be able to kill a number of people between one and a city. Perhaps a crowd? Hard to delineate. I can fly with major, but can I fly in space? If so, how fast? Going close to the speed of light breaks no rules, it just takes ridiculous amounts of energy.

Then, is there any limit on Primal magic? If one can destroy a city, acan one destroy a world? How do we know what the limit is, if there is one?

I suspect that any attempt to tighten up such definitions is going to be fraught with difficulties as well.

Mike

[Bailywolf]

Oddly enough, I had little problem with the power scheme-

When using magic to (say) attack or kill, the MAGIC can do what a person could do... So I invoke the magic on a guy who is across the room, and it kills him... the FX don't matter.  Range isn't really relevent (though I'd keep Minor magics line of sight).

The old Vader strangle is a perfect minor magic- a person could reach out and strangle a guy... the magic can do the same...

The creation of a magical tool- say a magic wand which can invoke kill effects on its own- would be a Major effect as I read it.  

Basicly, judge the power of the magic itself- not the magic in relationship with the caster and target- to determine how it fits into the scheme.

For instance- a person can't lift a suitecase without touching it... yet could lift it physicaly.  The caster of a telekinesis spell isn't trying to lift a suitecase without touching- he is creating a minor magical effect which can do for him something he could do himself- lift the case.  The basic result- a case gets lifted- is what you judge...not whether doing so without physical contact is possible (clearly not).

And the lifting can take any form desired- I'd go with sommoning a demonic vallet to carry the case or causing it to sprout legs and run about.


Perhaps a simple time limit or scope-

Minor Magic- can do no more than a single human could do in an hour (or day or week or whatnot).

Major Magic- can do no more than 100 humans or a specialized peice of machinery could do.

I don't know.  A block of what-is-possible things like this...and then a few pages of example effects would help.  Limits based on time or complexity will also prevent life creation from being an issue at less than Major levels of power.

[Mike Holmes]

All I see is you saying that ranged does not matter. Well, I say it does. The ability to lift a key that you can touch or one on the table outside of your cell is crucial. And I'm OK with magic being ranged so long as that's made part of the definition.

I note that SR seems to be familiar with Hero System (belied by the use of terms like Special Effect, etc). In that system, doing things at range which are normally not is a +1/2 advantage. Pretty significant. I'm just asking for a clearer definition. Making lists would obviate the need for a definition that included ideas of what a human can do "unaided" and as such would be an improvement.

OTOH, both systems really put a ton of subjective judgement in the GMs hands, which is something that I personally like to avoid. The system should be there to adjudicate just these things. In Sorcerer, you don't have a rule that says that you can bind a demon "about so powerful", you have exact numbers, and die rolls associated with the binding mechanics and the statistics of the participants. Much better to have this sort of mechanic than having the GM guessing all the time. The reasons should be obvious.

IMO.

Mike

[Bailywolf]

The obvious solution is to simply rule that at the Minor level your magic can't do anything beyond the maximum possible system-specified value a human could obtain.

It can inflict damage using the same system components as a maxed-out human.

It can lift weights using the same lifting capacity of a maxed out human.

It can enhance up to the capacity of a maxed out human etc.

I don't know anything about the system beneath this conceptual framework, so I don't know how it will work.



Again, I posit that in terms of determining the order of the magic for this scheme, range is basicly irrelevent.  In the key example, the basic difference between doing it physicaly (an imposibility due the jail cell) is that the magical forces used do the work.  They are not tools used by a mage, but rather discrete entities.  The magic works where it manifests- at the location of the key- not by extending the mage's reach out to a distance.  Think outside the box on this one.

A more significant concern for me is duration- how long does the effect or spell persist?

[Bailywolf]

Side note here, I am a bit biased in the direction of a result-based system at the moment (one of my own projects spun off that long-lost Naritivist mages thread).

Basicly, magic in my current scheme just grants a hunk of color (FX) and potency- you make simple or dynamic contests with these dice and get what you want if you succede (as mediated by margine of success).  

A few simple universal definitions and limitations keep things in check, but when it comes right down to it, the mechanics are always the same- roll your dice and compare to the victim's.  Interpret accordingly.


I think there is already a strong vein of this in  Sarim's scheme.


later

-Ben

[SarimRune]

Whoa.  Some great feedback.  Let's dive in shall we.  


First, we'll deal with Mike Holmes' concern about the power levels of magic.  Although, basically, Bailywolf answered it exactly how I see it.  

 Mike is correct, I'll need a LOT more detail about what you can and cannot do.  But the concept is how Bailywolf interrepted it.  
Minor magics are meant to simulate what a human could conceivably do (without the aid of a device or say help).  And it's not what a little old granny is capable of.  It's what an average healthy human could likely do.  Magic offers, in essence, a new medium to do that same effect.  So a human can kill with their bare hands, magic can kill.  But magic can do it through a different medium and that medium can be directed, at a distance, towards the target.

Bailywolf is also correct in the limit of range.  Minor magic is what I like to call 'line of awareness' which is to say that if you can sense it, you can likley affect it (so if you know two hitmen are hiding behind a door, for example, you are aware that they are there.  You can try to use magic to affect them).  Sight is one of our only 'targeting' sense, so if you're using anything other than sight to 'target' your opponent, it makes it a little more difficult.  

Major magics can extend the distance of a minor spell, under the correct conditions.  I.e.  if you possess a personal object of your opponent, you can can it from nearly anywhere in the world.  

Primal magics are likely to be very big effects anyway so their range doesn't really matter.

Mike cites some good examples:  

Falling - You're right that once you hit terminal velocity, it's not really a factor that a human can do anything to save themselves from the impact.  I'll likely revise my example for the future.  Falling much shorter distances (a more controlled distance) could be within the realm of Minor magic.  Falling great distances should be Major magics.

Locking picking - Yep, you're right.  A combo lock would be major magics.  A key lock would be Major magics.  Smashing the door in would be Minor magic, however.  

Atomic bomb - This is the only example that doesn't work.  A person cannot destroy a city with an atomic bomb.  What I mean is, the person themselves does absolutely nothing except press a button (or set it up).  The bomb does all the work, all the destruction.  This is different from Major magics.  Aid means I can sew you back up with a needle and thread, fly by controlling an airplane.  The difference is that if I turn on a bomb, it'll explode without me.  If I turn on a plane or a car, it won't do that much without me directing it.
   You're smart enough to find an example where my ranks of magic won't answer.  And that's fine.  The ranks of magic are for the Storyguide, not the player.  Really, if the Storyguide wants to be able to say that Major magics can destroy a city, it's their story.  The Storyguide will likely have to make some hard decisions.  But the idea is that there are only three simple decisions to make.  Minor is for the small stuff.  Major is for the big stuff (or Minor stuff that affects a big area/long distance).  Primal is for the godlike stuff.  
I want to encourage the Storyguide to deal with as they feel is appropriate.  I would almost advise the Storyguide to choose the rank based on how important it is to the story but only if they felt comfortable with it.  

As far as Primal magics go, again, a lot of it is left to the Storyguide.  The big problem with Primal magic is that you always alert Primal beings to the casting of such magic.  And it always requires Ceremonies which are long.  I.e.   To cast Primal magic you are always giving an enemy time to stop you.  
   I would say that there are no limits on what Primal magic can do.  It created the universe.  It can destroy the universe.  However, the problem is not in how much power you can wield.  The problem is who you alert when you try to cast it.  You couldn't ever use Primal magic to destroy the universe because the Being that protects it would squish you flat.  Of course, it probably wouldn't have to.  Few humans could survive the Ceremony of such a large event.  
   The way to use Primal magic is to do it very carefully and to avoid being too spectacular.  And also making a deal with other Primal beings for their aid in advance really helps.  So if you want to teleport to Mars and be able to survive there for a while (for whatever reason), if you somehow made contact with the Primal being that is the 'mother earth' of Mars, and got it's permission beforehand, you stand a lot better of a chance at casting your Primal magic.  
   Really, it's all in the hands of the Storyguide.


Mechanics
As far as the actual dice mechanics...well, I haven't finallized them.  I've had two systems and I don't care for either one too much.  
For now, I don't have the details on the mechanic.  I want a very simple system where a single dice roll determines what level of success you get.  I'll break out my old notes and post something later.

Servitors
As far as servants go: The world is full of them.  Well, not full full.  Basically I class all beings (everywhere) as being a Minor, Major and Primal being.  Primal beings are godlike beings, you don't normally deal/face them.  Major beings are the demon cat, King of Blades, etc sort of beings.  They are better than humans (Minor beings) and have some respectable power.  They can, however, be felled by magic.

 However, it's not that simple.  There are four worlds.  One is the world of the dead, for example.  Humans who die become Minor beings in the world of the dead.  Minor beings, spirits we'll call them, would have uncanny abilities by OUR standards in OUR world.  In the world of the dead, spirits are rather insignificiant and don't break any of the rules there.  As a Major being in our world would be quite powerful, a Major spiritual being in the world of the dead could be quite powerful.  

 The world is set up so that you can make up as much or as little as you want.  One of the worlds is that of dreams/nightmares.  Almost anything can be born from there and given form so whatever suites the Storyguide's tastes will work.  
 
 As far as Servitors go (I loved them too from Whispering Vault), I would think that Mages might have Minor otherworldly beings in their service.  That's quite fitting.  Thanks for the idea.
 However, for the most part, many Mages starting out, have little idea of what the world is all about.  There is no big Mage council (like from Mage: The ASSention) that will swoop down and tell you what's what.  Every Mage explores the world in their own way, through their own paradigm.  So if you wanted to play a wise Mage who was already aware of the other worlds, then servitors would be very appropriate.  If not, then you wouldn't likely know enough to have any.

 
Thanks for the insight so far.  I'll get back to you on the mechanics.

[SarimRune]

All I see is you saying that ranged does not matter. Well, I say it does. The ability to lift a key that you can touch or one on the table outside of your cell is crucial. And I'm OK with magic being ranged so long as that's made part of the definition.

I'm just asking for a clearer definition. Making lists would obviate the need for a definition that included ideas of what a human can do "unaided" and as such would be an improvement.

In Sorcerer, you don't have a rule that says that you can bind a demon "about so powerful", you have exact numbers, and die rolls associated with the binding mechanics and the statistics of the participants. Much better to have this sort of mechanic than having the GM guessing all the time. The reasons should be obvious.

 Thanks for you feedback.  Yes, you're correct, a more detailed understanding of what Minor and Major magic could do.  I can do that.  I'm don't think I need to right here and now, because I think we are all beginning to understand what limits I want to place on them.  I will if you want to look at them and help me out with a better definition.  I realize that it IS to simple right now.  

I don't own Sorcerer so I don't know how it works.  However, I personally don't like exact numbers, albeit I don't know the Sorcerer system so I'm not sure what you mean by exact numbers.  
The idea is that if you were to bind a Minor being, it would likely be Minor magic.  If you were to bind a Major being, it would likely be Major magic.  If you were to bing a Primal being, well, have fun trying cuz Primal magic would do the trick, but it's very hard to do.  

Now as far as limits, I think that Minor magic limits would be: Line of Awareness (as previous noted in my last post) would be the maximum distance.  As far as length of time, if you want a constant effect up, then you have to concentrate on it or weave the magic into an item so that it can do the 'concentrating' for you.  Either way, it won't last longer than a scene (10 minutes) and likely much less.  An instantaneous is usually permenant (like harming a victim, killing a victim) effect.  So it'll happen, then the real world continues.  So if you harm somebody using a instantaneous effect, the harm is real and will last until it heals.  If on the other hand you want to torture somebody, you might use a constant effect, so that the spell lasts for several minutes.  This harm will last until you stop the constant effect (stop concentrating).  I can give more details, but these are just the basics.  

Major magics have a significiant advantage and disadvantage as far as time and distance and effect goes.  You can get a much longer distance provided you have some way to extend your distance that cannot be done normally.  I.e.  If you have a hair or a favorite object or maybe even a picture, you can affect them at great distances (the world but not another world).  
 The length of time can be extended with Major magics but it still requires something to make the constant effect.  With Theurgy magic, this is a lot easier because the Primal being does the 'concentration' for you and they can keep up the concentration way longer than a human could.  
 Minor being (human) - A scene or 10 minutes, whatever is shorter
 Major being (demon, weak god, etc) - A day to a month, depending on how much you are willing to give them in return.
 Primal being (god, Loa, elemental force of nature, etc) - Much longer, a year or longer.  Again, depending on what you're giving in return.  

 Thaumaturgy doesn't normally have a greater being working in their aid, so they rely upon specially crafted items that can 'bind' the constant effect to it.  So be this a magic jar, a scarab amulet or a staff.  The most common limitation of the item is that because it's channelling magic through it, it can slowly break down, making it physically weak and easily destroyed.  

Anyway, when I think exact numbers I think of target numbers, so this little demon has a target number of 20, while this one has only 10.  I don't care for those type of numbers.  What is important, at least to this game, is that you understand that a demon is a more powerful type of being than a human.  Thus you can't do much with Minor magics against it (maybe harrass it but not seriously harm it).  You would need Major magics to deal with it properly.  Beyond that, you need to deal with it's inherent Defence roll when you cast magic against it, and some will be stronger than others, for certain.

[Lance D. Allen]

Here's an idea to help classify magic, though mostly in the Minor Magic area..

Faster: You can do whatever a human can normally do.. but you can do it instantly, or nearly so. If your character is a capable artist, they can use magic to paint something in, say, 5 minutes. If your character is capable of picking locks, then the lock can be picked NOW. etc.

Better: Magic can enhance whatever it is you're doing, whether it be allowing you to paint a masterpiece when your skill is only middlin' or pick complex locks when you're not particularly good at it.

Distant: Pick that lock from across the room, sans tools, or force-choke someone.

Two of the these categories can be combined, but it's more difficult, or more expensive, or whatever.

Just an idea.

[SarimRune]

Here's an idea to help classify magic, though mostly in the Minor Magic area..

Faster: You can do whatever a human can normally do.. but you can do it instantly, or nearly so. If your character is a capable artist, they can use magic to paint something in, say, 5 minutes. If your character is capable of picking locks, then the lock can be picked NOW. etc.

Better: Magic can enhance whatever it is you're doing, whether it be allowing you to paint a masterpiece when your skill is only middlin' or pick complex locks when you're not particularly good at it.

Distant: Pick that lock from across the room, sans tools, or force-choke someone.

Two of the these categories can be combined, but it's more difficult, or more expensive, or whatever.

Just an idea.

I like the cut of your jib.

 The only thing I warry about is the idea of magic aiding artwork.  I'm toying with the idea that magic cannot affect something that is inherently a work of imagination.  (Magic is focused by your imagination).  Or rather, Minor magics can say, offer you certain small advantages that an artist wouldn't normally have, like undo the last mistake that you did, or clear away the paint of the last hour.  
 But I think that it might take Major magic to actually create some true artwork.  The reason why is that Major magics have a bit more of a price, and there is a very good story in the idea that a artistic mage cannot easily use magic to create artwork.  

 I think that redefining what Minor and Major magics is a must.  

 On the final note, the line about it being more difficult or more expensive or whatever.  I think you've given me a good idea.  One idea is that you can make something less difficult by 'paying a price'.  So if you give your Primal being something of yourself, you'll find magic easier.  

 As a perfect example of this, during an old alpha test of the system (using old much more clunky rules), the primary Mage in the group was facing down another (evil) Mage.  To defeat him, the protagonist 'burnt' a piece of his soul to turn his Minor spell into a Major spell.  The difference was that the enemy Mage could not properly defend against a Major spell (without a Major spell himself) and was killed.  
 That was the end of that story but we had a second part of the story where that protagonist realized what he had done and that he wasn't complete without all of his soul.  He took a journey to go find it, tracking down where it might be.  He was a Thaumaturgist so when he paid the price, the piece of his soul was 'free' to whomever found it first.  He eventually went into the world of the dead, and travelled to the 'spiritual past' of the location he lost his soul.  He found the spiritual memory of the (evil) Mage he had defeated who had gained possession of the piece of Soul.  The protagonist had to do battle a second time with this echo Mage for his own Soul.  It was very cool because he couldn't do much against the echo Mage until he captured the piece of his soul back.  
   All in all, it was a cool story that developed into another cool story.

[Bailywolf]

Might I suggest a look at this old thread:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1307&highlight=naritivist+mage

I found myself walking down some of the paths you seem to be considering here for your own project.

Mike offered me some kickass advice there too.

[SarimRune]

That was an interesting article on magic.  I actually read it a LONG time ago.  

Well, I was asked what the system would be like.  So here is it.  Hopefully it doesn't suck.  


The system works with a d10 and is skill based.  It's a bit unrefined.

There are six skill ranks and each skill rank has a bonus/negative to the die roll associated to it.  

The skill ranks are:
Beginner        (-4)
Trained        (-2)
Proficient         (0)
Adept       (+2)
Master       (+4)
Legendary    (+6)
   (Legendary is super hard to get.  It should take a character a long time to EVER get there.  No character can normally start out higher than an Adept at character creation).  

   The system works in degrees of failure and success.
Roll on the 'chart'

-3 or less -    3rd Degree Failure
-2 to 1 -       2nd Degree Failure
2-5 -       1st Degree Failure
6-9 -       1st Degree Success
10-13 -       2nd Degree Success
14 or more -     3rd Degree Success

   Now then, a 1st Degree Success and a 1st Degree Failure aren't too different from each other.  A 1st Degree Failure actually doesn't necessarily mean that you fail (so maybe I will change the name to something else).  It means that either you don't succeed immediately or you mess up in a way that is recoverable.  

I.e.  Joey Joe Joe is driving a car for the first time.  He attempts to park and gets a 1st Degree Failure.  Basically he doesn't do it right.  He does park but his alignment is incorrect and it takes him a couple more attempts to get it right.  He didn't do it right the first time, but he eventually gets it right.

Factors
   A factor is something that makes a standard action easier or more difficult.  Basically the Storyguide can just use the default difficulty, and apply factors for or against.  
   Every factor changes the difficulty by one rank (+2 or -2).  
I.e.   So if Joey Joe Joe is in an empty parking lot, able to practice to his hearts content, he might get a factor in his favor, call it a Relaxed Factor.  So his difficulty becomes -2 instead of the normal -4.  

Multiple dice
   There are some instances where a character can roll multiple die to accumulate successes.  Combat, Research and Magic are common areas where a character might roll multiple dice to get a total number of successes.  There is a 5 die cap.  

Stats
   Ok, a little bit about Stats.  A character has Mind, Body and Soul.  Within each stat, a character has a trait which is an adjective that the player defines (and the Storyguide approves).  Each trait is basically a Factor that can be used in a character's favor.  The character may choose when to use those traits in a challenge, gaining a temporary factor for the single challenge.  Traits are replenished when a character is able to rest properly (not always just a nights sleep).  
   You can normally only declare one trait at a time.  
   If a character takes the exact same trait (say, a character wants to take Nimble twice) then it counts as two factors but it cannot be divided up, thus basically you must use both traits at the same time.  
   
I.e.    Joey Joe Joe is driving home carefully.  The Storyguide made him roll and he got a 1st Degree failure.  The Storyguide takes that to mean that he stalled his car at an intersection and pissed off some people.  He is making his way home when a wounded man jumps into the passenger seat and shouts at him to drive.  Something very big and very mean is now lumbering up to the car.
   Joey guns the engine and has to make a roll.  Joey uses an Alert Mind trait to gain a factor.  His difficulty is now just Challenging.  He rolls and gets a 1st Degree Success.  

Stats - Exhausting/Burning
   You can Exhaust a trait instead of just using one.  Exhausting means that you can use the trait AFTER you roll but it causes some amount of strain.  If you Exhaust a trait, you can't use it until the end of the story (or after at least a month).
   You can choose to Burn a trait as well.  Burning a trait means that after you use it (not Exhaust it) you can 'burn' off your trait to shift your degree of failure/success in your favor, by one degree.  You cross Burnt traits off your character sheet.  Mages have other uses for burning traits.

Thresholds
   Every trait (except burnt ones) create Threshold, which is basically a natural defence against things that attempt to harm or influence the character.  
   A character has a Threshold equal to the number of traits that they possess.  Basically, a Threshold reduces penalties against a character's defence rolls.  Attacks that go beyond the Threshold will cause a character to suffer factors.  
   
I.e.  Joey has 2 Traits under his Body (not bad at all), so Joey has a Threshold of 2.  When he is physical struck, he will ignore the first two factors against him for his defence roll.  



Ok, onto the good stuff.  Magic:


I've already detailed the rolls that will occur:

Remembrance: Optional roll to get more control over your magic.  Roll a Mind based Magic Skill if you want to remember the Gestures and Incantations for a spell.

Summoning/Strain: You may roll more than one die for this.  Roll a Soul based Magic Skill.  For every degree of success you get, you get a die worth of eldritch energy to direct.  For failure you get, you get a die worth of eldritch energy to direct but you also get a Strain Factor against you (temporary fatigue, nosebleed, muscle pain) for every degree of failure.  
   
Focus: You make a Focus roll (single die).  Roll a soul based Magic Skill but include any Strain Factors against your efforts.  If you fail by any degree, you screw up your spell and it is cast 'against' you in some way.  Storyguide can have optional funky stuff occur.  If you succeed by any degree, your spell is unleashed, as you plan, against your opponent.  

Defence: Your target gets a Defence roll, based on their Resolve Skill (or Magic skill if higher).  You have one factor against you for every degree of success and/or for every failure rolled in the Summoning of the spell.  A Success will stop the spell dead.  

I.e.  The Mage that jumped into Joey's car, prepares to cast a spell which will make the demon behind them trip.  He doesn't want to alert Joey about the magic he's about to cast so he ignores the Gestures/Incantations (meaning he doesn't have to make a Remembrance roll).  
   The Mage is an Adept in magic but he is wounded so that counts as a Factor against him in this case.  Normally an Adept gets a +2 to any roll, but in this case, he has a 0 bonus.  
   He chooses to roll 3 dice for the Summoning/Strain roll and spends a Potent Soul Trait (to give himself a factor on ONE roll).  He rolls 2 white d10s and one red d10 (to distinguish between the one that has a bonus factor).  
   He rolls a 3, 6, and on the die aided by the trait, 5+2=7.  That's two 1st degree successes and one 1st degree failure.  That gives him a spell worth a total of 3 Factors to defend against.  
   The Mage must now make a Focus roll to direct the energy that he's summoned, to his will.  He must deal with both his prior Wound and the Strain (basically two factors this time).  He spends another Soul Trait, Mysterious to give himself a factor in his favor.  He rolls a 9-2=7 and succeeds.  The spell goes as planned.
   The demon gets a defence roll against magic.  The demon has two Soul traits, so it's Spiritual Threshold is 2.  The spell attempts to apply three factors against the demon, but the demon gets to ignore up to it's Threshold of 2.  So only one factor is applied against it.  The demon rolls it's Proficient Resolve and gets a 5.  That's a Failure so it fails to defend against the spell.  It is tripped and the car gets away.  


   Magic is an involved roll, I will admit.  But this is done by design.  I like the idea that spells are not as casual as driving or throwing a ball.  It's going to take the Mage two, maybe three rolls to get a spell done.  The way I see it though, is that players already accept in combat to be rolling more than once.  Often the attack dice must be rolled, then the damage dice.  Then the opponent often gets to roll some form or defence.  Magic is just the same.  You roll your damage 'potential' first and then your 'attack' dice second.  Then your opponent gets a defence roll.  

I can see some issues that people might have with it already.  This is an old system that I developed and updated in the past couple of hours.  I'm not married to it at the moment so I'm somewhat open to suggestions.

[Mike Holmes]

More straigtforward, I'd think, would be the following adjustment:

The skill ranks are:

Code Select Expand

Beginner    (0)
Trained     (+2)
Proficient  (+4)
Adept       (+6)
Master      (+8)
Legendary   (+10)

Code Select Expand

1 or less   3rd Degree Failure
2-3         2nd Degree Failure
4-9         1st Degree Failure
10-13       1st Degree Success
14-17       2nd Degree Success
18 or more  3rd Degree Success

Multiple dice
   There are some instances where a character can roll multiple die to accumulate successes.  Combat, Research and Magic are common areas where a character might roll multiple dice to get a total number of successes.  There is a 5 die cap.  

In what sort of instances do you get the extra dice? Besides the example of magic that you give. Can a player roll as many as they like?

You can choose to Burn a trait as well.  Burning a trait means that after you use it (not Exhaust it) you can 'burn' off your trait to shift your degree of failure/success in your favor, by one degree.  You cross Burnt traits off your character sheet.  Mages have other uses for burning traits.

When you say cross off, that's as in permenantly? Just to be clear.

Thinking about the rest...

Mike