Character generation going on and on and..

[Bankuei]

This thread is covering a lot of really good ground...

First, I think archtypes or suggestions are always a good idea if the players don't already have one in mind.  I find that with narrativist games, particularly if the players do not have a pregen setting in front of them, it's a good idea to either start pulling examples from books or movies as far as style and attitude, or start giving more guidance as to what the game is going to involve.

This links directly into players worrying about picking the wrong skills or making bad choices.  You can say, "This game is pulp, think Indiana Jones, stunts, action, weird locales, etc" and that gives the players a better idea of what to go with.

The second issue that I think comes up is that players want to have game play similar to what they see in movies or good books, but define their characters very differently than movies or books do.  

Because the entire group is the audience, the backstory doesn't exist until it's played out in front of players, just as GM backstory doesn't exist until stated.  The players often come up with complex backstories, but cannot bring it over to actual play, leaving a giant disjunction between the character in concept and the character in play.

What I suggest is that players define their characters in more open terms and simply define them through play.  The questions then become more role based than character background based.  

For example
What kind of character-Cold, calculating businessman, think Bruce Wayne
 without any conscience
What kind of action do you want- Lots of social intimidation, intrigue, political manuevering
What's driving you-I have to keep convincing myself that I'm worth something...

Then using those kind of ideas to immerse the character and let the character get adapted to the story in play, not the story "As was written".  Of course, the hardest thing is getting players to let go of the predefined character as the sole definition of character.

From the example above, it doesn't state what kind of business this character is in, or how big the business is, etc., etc, but can be something to be created in play, not before play.  Take a look at Hero Wars creation in play rules, and you'll get a good idea of what I'm talking about.

Chris

[Paul Czege]

Hey,

One reason I think character creation can take so long is that players are afraid of making the wrong choices before the game even begins.

I think Jared makes a fantastic point here. And beyond his Shadowrun and D&D examples, I think it's just as relevant to narrativist games. At least it is for me. Making decisions about my character is hard for me. Check out my http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1697">recent difficulty creating a Whispering Vault character for an example. Upon considering it, I think the problem with making decisions about character for me has been not knowing how much empowerment over situation and setting elements to expect in actual play from an unfamiliar combination of rules-set and GM. Witness http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2536">the conflict between me and Scott over how much like a B horror movie his character's story would be like during our recent playtest of http://www.123.net/~czege/WFD.html">The World, the Flesh, and the Devil. He thought he'd have more influence than he did. Making a narrativist character for me is, in many ways, a guessing game, trying to skew the details in such a way that when he's mixed with the stuff the GM won't budge about during actual play, I still end up with a protagonist and a story that's interesting to me. It's an exercise in managing my own expectations, examining what's significant to me, trying to be trusting, presenting the character to the group in such a way that he's captures audience interest prior to gameplay, and assessing whether I'm going to be able to handle the character so, given the rules-set and GM expectations for the game, that audience interest is maintained. You don't want to make any mistakes, because if you do, you're in for disappointment. The whole thing is provoked by fear of disappointment.

Paul