Looking for Forums

[hoefer]

Perhaps this would go under "Publishing" -I'm not sure...  Anywhoo... I was wondering if some one out there could direct me to other forums that talk about Indy Games, especially those that take kindly to Game Designers discussing their up coming releases, etc.  Basically I want to start getting the word out about my game (Century's Edge) and my company (Whole Sum Entertainment) -I realize face-to-face demos at conventions are best, and have done this, but right now I need to generate some interest from office desk during lunch breaks at "my real job" :-)  Thanks for your suggestions!


Louis Hoefer
Whole Sum Entertainment

[Lazy Wombat]

You might want to try RPGNet at http://forum.rpg.net/forumdisplay.php?f=5.

[Lance D. Allen]

You could also try Story Games (http://www.story-games.com/forums/) and see if the environment over there works out for you.

[M. J. Young]

Let me toss out a suggestion for you.

Most forums do not take kindly to being used as promotional sites.  That is, if you want to post "We've got this new game we want you to buy" you're going to ruffle feathers, or at best be limited to the advertising ghetto of the forum.

There are two ways to deal with this, but they come very much to the same thing.

The first answer is to get involved in the forums as a participant, not as a promoter.  Find questions people are asking that you can answer.  Build a rep for yourself as someone who knows what he is saying.  In the process, you can mention your game ("The way we solved that problem in Century's edge was...."), and you can certainly include the fact that you are connected with the game in your signature--being a game designer gives you some cred in itself.

The second answer is to write articles.  Every role playing game site on the web is looking for people who can write well and provide solid material for their readers.  Hopefully if you wrote a game you fit the profile.  (If you do not fit the profile, either you're not the game's author/designer or you probably don't have a good game.)  Find out who supervises such sites, and ask what they want in terms of articles; if you can give them some idea of your particular areas of expertise, that's even better.

This gets you "front page" exposure on most sites, because when your article goes up they announce it.  It also lets you include a blurb saying that you're the author/designer/whatever of your game from your company.  Further, it makes you look a bit more credible than "another guy with his own game"--you become a known author of published RPG articles.

I know that RPGnet is always looking for good articles and columns.  Gaming Outpost still publishes articles.  The Forge here has high standards, and so does Places to Go People to Be, but both are worth the effort.  I'm not sure whether RoleplayingTips.com is still publishing new material on-site (their weekly e-newsletter has been discontinued), but they have a significant following.  I just got an invite to write for a new site, but can't think of the name right now.  In any case, I hope this helps.

--M. J. Young

[greyorm]

MJ, you may be thinking of RPGLife, who recently put out a call/invite for gaming columnists. At any rate, it would be another site for you to look at/try/post at, Louis.

[hoefer]

Thanks for the advice guys.  My unfortunate predicament is that, I don't play many games that are "in-print."  I feel I would be a little short handed trying to write an article that would be "hot for press."  But maybe there are some "meta-game type" issues that could make a good article for one of these guys. 

Here's maybe a "Part II" to my earlier question: I've gone out and announced the availability of my free Quick-Play Rules and other free downloads on some of these sites (I've tried to stay away from flat out -"order my game..." sales pitches and focus things around getting people to actually try it and give me feedback).  After I place one of these adds I immediately see a pick up in traffic on my site and several (1-8) downloads of my rules.  Still, no one ever responds with any feedback (They don't post any follow up, don't send any emails, don't even get on my site's message board).  With the web tracking software my provider gives me, I can tell there are what appear to be ripple effects (i.e. Joe downloads it, then someone using the same local service provider as Joe downloads it, ...ad infinitum.)  So, I don't think its because people really aren't playing it, or that it "sucks" or anything (I would think this ripple effect -which I've witnessed 3 times, wouldn't happen if it wasn't being played or wasn't any good).  Anyhow (I'm rambling -sorry), is there any good way to generate more responses, from these sites where you've already posted, without seeming desperate or pushy?  Would it be uncouth to post a reply to my own "demo my game" thread asking those who downloaded it if they had any feedback or comments?  Would a new post on these boards even generate any additional "feeds" towards my site? (i.e. is it worth it to try and stay "posted today").  What are your opinions?  What have you done?  (I do understand the "be a member of the community and become a board-regular" and all that is a point well-taken, this question is specifically dealing with follow up posts to my initial posts on some of these sites -how would you do them? would they be worth while?) 

Thanks


Louis Hoefer
Whole Sum Entertainment

[Eero Tuovinen]

Actually, posting follow-up seems to work, surprisingly enough. The reason it does seems to be pity, though: for example, I myself usually answer a thread on these boards when the original poster complains about nobody answering him. Still, that gets you what you want, which is affirmation that people are out there and listening.

A potentially better way to keep up awareness is to produce new content related to your game, though. Write an actual play report about your own game, for instance, or continue your design efforts in public and ask useful questions. Or write an essay about what is wrong with D&D and how you tried to fix that in your game. Lots of possibilities for giving your game some name recognition.

I wouldn't presume that your game is being played, by the way - the step from reading a rpg to playing it is the largest single step in marketing your game. Personally I'll only believe that my game is being played when the guy who plays it mails me and tells me so.

[hoefer]

Point taken on the "really played" issue.  I guess it just seemed by the number and the localities of some fo the service providers my game was being down loaded by a gaming group or what have you -I know this is a stretch of interpretation but it seemed logical at the time -esspecially when I've seen the phenomenon repeated. 

[Ron Edwards]

I have some advice for you that's specialized for the Forge.

Looking over your posts, I see that most of them are consistent with a tactic that's pretty widespread: fitting in by being friendly and non-threatening. You find a thread which you have some experience or existing contact with already, or a post which seems reasonable, and you post a nice but essentially empty reply that says "Me too!" or "Cool!" The idea seems to be that after a while you'll be "accepted" and treated as a part of the community instead of as a newcomer.

That may be fine at other sites, but it doesn't work here. It's not because I moderate it or ban anyone or whatever; it's because the community is different. If you'd like to make the Forge really work for you, then quit worrying about fitting in or being accepted.* Instead, make your voice heard by posting substantial material about playing your game.

It's pretty easy, in fact. Post about playing your game in the Actual Play forum. It doesn't have to be a puff-job about how wonderful it is. You can showcase what was actually good simply by reporting what actually happened. It's even useful to post about a session that didn't go so well, and why you think that might be so. You could even back-track and post about when you were playtesting it (using the Playtesting forum) and explain why you changed something about the system or presentation based on what happened.

At this website, people respond to such posting very positively and become interested in your game. One way to look at it is that you are already accepted here simply because, well, because. Instead of doing the internet equivalent of standing around looking mild and pleasant, let us know about your game in the most straightforward way - by talking about playing it.

Best, Ron

* The opposite tactic, which is arguing and staking out some kind of owned intellectual territory, also doesn't work here. But since that's not what you've tried to do, it's not important - I mention it only because it's also common and its reception at this site is identical.

[hoefer]

Well, Ron, I don't "act" pleasant to fit in and I'm not a "yesman."  I simply enjoy the feed back I've been getting.  Also, I'm not sure I've ever posted a "me too" or "cool" reply.  I've recently posted a couple praises of some artists –but that was because they both were incredibly reasonable for what they offered me, and I want to let other Indie publishers know its worth their time to check them out.  I probably don't chime in often because I am from an "old school" gamer philosophy, and much of what I think would be seen as outmoded or confrontational (for example the posts about the "traits" in games just drives me nuts –if the traits are written up/engineered correctly, executed by the narrator correctly, and understood by the player correctly than...  I digress...)

Your point about posting under actual play is taken though.  I guess I always thought it was a little corny when I read a game publisher going on and on about a game session with their own games and there doesn't seem to be a legitimate question in their post –but I was working under the notion that a "good post" should have a direct point (typically a question to respond to or an announcement that others might take interest in).  Toting on your own game, I guess I thought was "bad forum etiquette."  I can see, though, if a game session brings forth a point that seems unique or a good demonstration of X, Y, or Z.  Then there is at least some substance to the post and it wouldn't just be a self-absorbed "gamerstory."

I recent posting about "sandbox" games on that linked site where GNS is being hashed over in "plain speak" has got me things about a session with Century's Edge I ran...  I'll probably start with that.  Thanks.

[First Oni]

Thanks for the advice guys.  My unfortunate predicament is that, I don't play many games that are "in-print."  I feel I would be a little short handed trying to write an article that would be "hot for press."

I'm late to the game, but I do have one extra note on the above comment. Not every web site is only looking for submissions for "new" or "hot" games. I'm sure that if you check around, you'd find outlets for your oldschool knowledge and may be able to write articles on how to keep older games around with "new" and "hot" ideas.

Just a thought.

-Oni

[M. J. Young]

My unfortunate predicament is that, I don't play many games that are "in-print."  I feel I would be a little short handed trying to write an article that would be "hot for press."  But maybe there are some "meta-game type" issues that could make a good article for one of these guys.

I'm a rather prolific Internet article writer, and I'm afraid that a lot of my knowledge of the new and up-and-coming games is second-hand.  I don't have the money to get hold more than a few, and don't even have all the ones I want, and haven't had an opportunity to read and play all the ones I have.

That doesn't stop me from understanding something about games, game design, and the possibilities created by these new ideas.  A lot of people would call me "old school", but I paid attention to "new school" too.  Besides "new school" is extremely diverse--the stuff coming out of Wizards of the Coast is completely different from the stuff coming from Dark Omen Games.

Somewhere I have an article on how to get powergamers involved in roleplaying.  Somewhere I have some insights into how intuition and surprise interact in reality, and how to bring that into a game.  Somewhere I have a brief of ten "rules" that will let any gaming group create effective courtroom drama in a role playing game.  If you can write and can create a game, you can probably get something together that will be published by someone.

Still, no one ever responds with any feedback (They don't post any follow up, don't send any emails, don't even get on my site's message board).

When I was in radio, it was pretty standard to assume that one letter represented a hundred listeners.  You don't usually get anything from people unless you really upset them.  The first article I wrote for an RPG site got no response at all.  I asked on the site's forum why it got no response at all, and the consensus was that everyone agreed with it so there wasn't anything to say.  It is rare for people to write to tell you that they really like your game.  We have had over the years thousands of downloads of demo material we were giving away to attract attention; we never got one e-mail about any of it.

What you can do to get feedback is solicit it directly:  sites that do RPG reviews usually have a published review policy somewhere, and if they don't they'll answer inquiries.  It is certainly easier to get something reviewed that is in print, but there are a lot of reviews of e-published materials.  Find a site that publishes reviews, find out what they require to put you on the list to be reviewed, and do that.  I have known people who were reviewers for RPG sites.  Sometimes they were contacted by the game publisher (and you count as a publisher if you're distributing your game) who gave them a free copy in exchange for a review; sometimes the site itself solicits materials for review and then offers these to its staff of reviewers.  You can get your stuff reviewed.  This gets you more attention than merely announcing that it's available, and it gets you the feedback of someone who doesn't know you but has examined and often test played your game.

I hope this helps.

--M. J. Young

[hoefer]

M.J.
[quote author=M. J. Young link=topic=26677.msg255500#msg255500 When I was in radio, it was pretty standard to assume that one letter represented a hundred listeners.  You don't usually get anything from people unless you really upset them.  The first article I wrote for an RPG site got no response at all.  I asked on the site's forum why it got no response at all, and the consensus was that everyone agreed with it so there wasn't anything to say.  It is rare for people to write to tell you that they really like your game.  We have had over the years thousands of downloads of demo material we were giving away to attract attention; we never got one e-mail about any of it.

What you can do to get feedback is solicit it directly:  sites that do RPG reviews usually have a published review policy somewhere, and if they don't they'll answer inquiries. 
[/quote]
This is all very useful.  I am especially encouraged that I'm not the only one getting "lots" (~2 daily) of downloads with zero feedback.  I will have to solicit some review sites, but right now I'm struggling like mad to finish out a new and final layout of my main rule book (I was supposed to go to press this month, but it's looking like it will be November...) 
Thanks again for your reply -it was very useful!

Louis Hoefer
www.wholesumentertainment.com

[Bomb Cat]

I have found that I am lazy when it comes to other peoples games. I love to download and play games people have made but I rarely comment on the game unless something is completely broken. If the game is just something that really stands out I will usually throw in a line about enjoying it or finding it very creative, and thats about it.

In posting and looking for feedback on ones own games, I think its good to keep in mind that the game you have created is something you have lived with, ate with, slept with and spent many intimate moments with. For you personally your game is probably very important because it is so central to you. Most people dont care and those that do care will not shower praise upon you for your work or even take a great interest in it, perhaps they will show no interest in it. This doesn't mean that it is not enjoyed or liked, its just not a central concern to the gaming lives of the people who played it.
(Im speaking from my own experience in posting games).

A lot of times people dont have time to comment or note everything they liked or disliked in a work. This isnt because they dont care its just because one can only post in so many forums, answer so many emails, take care of so many kids, work so many hours, blog so many blogs in a day (part of the reason I dont post much here...sorry Forge...I still enjoy your compnay tremendously).

I think as you become more embedded into these type of gaming forums and learn the personalities of the forums as living entities with their own unique traits and members, you will become more at home, more at peace and learn what to do and what not to do. It takes time, it takes effort and it takes patience and maturity. What you are doing now is a great way to go about this. You are asking questions that you need to ask. You are interacting and making your presence known to a community of like minded individuals who, for the most part, want you to succeed.

(I hope this doesnt come off as condescending, its not meant to be.)