The Scattered Stars

[Rauðbjørn]

Hoi!

I've an idea for a game, and I thought I'd throw it out there for comment.

It's a multifaceted game of exploration, war, intrige, espionage and trade set against a collossal, user co-defined galaxy.  The major empires (and some of the worlds) are pre set, as are the major races, and the rest can be made up by the players/GMs and submitted for acceptance and mapping (via an online starmap). 

Here's the pitch.



I've mapped out the major polities, and the major races (including the relative average tech levels).  The Idea is to relase an alien critter, race, civilization, planet and system creation kit, either online or in conjunction with the core book, so that people that want to "homebrew" a race or homeworld or a minor empire can submit them have them approved for "legal" use (and use the online approved critters, worlds and systems) as part of their games, without having to buy forty-eleven splatbooks (one of my pet peeves).  Credit would be given as an "associate contributing writer", freeing me and mine up from the tedious task of inventing one hundred billion star systems, and adding an exciting new dimension to the gaming experience. 

I'm still trying to make the alignment system work the way I want.  It's actualy a matrix of Moral, Ethical and Social constraints that are maleable enough to allow for slow shifting, and "Going Native", but not for dramatic shifts.  The consequences of ignoring your morals, disobeying your ethos or violating your taboos would have more than simply metagame consequences.

I'm tinkering with a skill driven D% system.  The attributes used to describe a character are both randomly generated (to simulate the randomness of freebirth) and "built" based on species and background, using a Dark Conspiracy type background generator.  Each of the six "Prime" attributes is subdivided into two "Second" attributes used to add to skills and derive resistances (eg. Dodge is Agility + Insight /2, Pain is Resiliance + Willpower/2).

The skill system is an Attribute + Training + Background = Skill  system that advances similarly to BRP with a steep XP for training exchange.  Depending on the Technology level of the character's background, you might have access to a few archaic skills (Farming, Animal Care, Melee Proficency: Axe) or a whole Host of options (Pilot: Starship, Ranged Proficiency: Laser, Knoweldge, Cultural: The Ilkahni Confedracy).  New skills are simply obtained, proficiency is easy to achieve, mastery is difficult, almost impossible.

Combat is fast pased, realistic, and exciting, with all actions planned before initiative is rolled, and then excecuting in order of reaction.  Damage is either a minor inconvenience (bruises and scrapes, contusions, abrasions and minor concussions) or life-threatening (bullet holes, de-pressurization trauma, ruptured organs), and enough concussions, can lead to a damaged brain.

What do you think?

[soundmasterj]

list]
[li]Creating a gigantic world, a huge complex of different societes, fantastic worlds (pitch, player input)
[/li]

Emulating a reality (derivated attributes following some tradition of describing the physics of human action, random character creation)

<[/li]
[li]Emulating a reality (derivated attributes following some tradition of describing the physics of human action, random character creation)
[/li]

[Dementia Games]

I typed a massive response and it seems to have been vaporised, so I'm going to be much shorter here...

Not a fan of the alignment concept.  Even D&D has gotten very lax with its use, and this is largely because people didn't like it and didn't play strictly by it.  Unless you've got a good reason to include it and it is in any way "fun" for the players, I'd scrap this idea.

Soundmasterj might have jumped the gun a bit about your combat being fast paced and exciting comment - I get that you're comparing it to other systems, not other methods of resolution within your own game.  Personally, I'm somewhat of a skeptic on these things because I've read about combat being fast paced and exciting many times but played few games that lived up to the claim.  This is not to say that your situation isn't different.

Enough negativity, on to what I praise.

I, too, find your communal approach to galaxy building fascinating.  Also, I'm keen to hear more about your Creation Kit (for characters, races, planets, systems, etc).  Let me explain, quickly.  I have a relatively logical mind, but I was not very good at science in school.  I love sci fi and have run such games in the past.  However, I've always been limited by my capacity to create a "realistic" star system and so forth.  This Creation Kit, then, could be a real focal (read: selling) point of your game for gamers like me.  Yours will not be the first nor the last game set in the stars, but if you can devise a creation system that allows a science goober like me to create believable races, planets, systems and even galaxies, then you will have performed a service that makes your game totally worth the money.  Many games have sort-of tried this, particularly generic ones, but it's never quite enough, because it's not the focal point of the game.  Being that the alignment concept is possibly meh and the other aspects (D%, skill driven, etc) are nothing new to the market, your special niche in this oversaturated world could very well be the creation aspects (including the community approach to galaxy building).  I would really focus on this as a major driving force in your design, personally.  Bottom line, if you can enable a moron like myself to create star systems, their planets and even their races and cultures with relative ease, you've got something special there.  Furthermore, you might even consider such a toolkit from a more generic standpoint - applicable to any sci fi game.  This would make your game desirable even to those who are already well set in their ways with other games and systems much older than your own. 

My two cents, anyway.  I'm interested to hear more about your Creation Kit, if you've got more to tell.

[Vulpinoid]

...can submit them have them approved for "legal" use (and use the online approved critters, worlds and systems) as part of their games, without having to buy forty-eleven splatbooks (one of my pet peeves)...

This would be a perfect use for a game related wiki.

Devise a system where anyonecan add their races, planets, ships, etc. into the wiki, then pick and choose which of these elements you'd like to include as canon for the system. If it get's big enough later, you can appoint a few other trusted individuals to make submitted aspects canon for your game.

I'd be interested in seeing if your generation kit is "point buy", "random", some combination of the two, or something entirely new and innovative.

V

[Rauðbjørn]

Quote from: soundmasterj on November 14, 2008, 07:58:24 AM

.)

I'm not certain what that sentence means, but I'll try to explain alignments.

Every one has a moral, ethical and societal code of conduct that tell him or her what to do.  Sometimes people violate these codes, and that can result in everything from depression, to PTSD.  Your Moral code probably includes things like "do not kill people", "inflict only that harm which cannot be avoided" and "all men are created equal".  Your ethical code probably includes "Obey the law of  the land", "do not lie to people" and "assist police officers if asked".  Modern cultural or societal taboos in the northern and western hemispheres typically include, cannibalism, incest, and slavery.  Violating the moral - ethical codes or cultural taboos of your society can result in self loathing, addiction, incarceration, emotional and psychological trauma and suicidal tendencies.

People who have no code of conduct are called psychopaths, and almost every society on earth hunts these people down and kills or incarcerates them, because they are dangerous. 

Originally alignments were meant to provide a code of conduct based on the characters moral and ethical outlook.  D&D based the moral axis of this index on a rating of good, neutral and evil, and the ethical axis on a rating of Lawful, neutral and chaotic.  When compared, a player could find a way to generally describe his character's moral/ethical code.  Lawful Good for example was a big fan of human rights, freedom, duty and personal responsibility.  Inversely, Chaotic Evil wanted to enslave others, garner power only for himself and was generally an ass and a violent one at that.  A character that fell at the Neutral - Neutral (called True Neutral) index was either a waffler, unable to decide on a strong code of conduct, and just tried to get along as best he could, or was determined to help maintain the balance of all forces in the world, and would assist whichever force needed to be assisted to maintain the balance (sometimes the goblins need to win). 

Not a fan of the alignment concept.  Even D&D has gotten very lax with its use, and this is largely because people didn't like it and didn't play strictly by it.  Unless you've got a good reason to include it and it is in any way "fun" for the players, I'd scrap this idea.

In White Wolf they are called nature and demeanor (and sometimes the Shadow or Po), in Palladium, the alignments are subsets of Good, Selfish, and Evil, and in some cases Honorable and Dishonorable.  Star Wars used Light side and Dark side, Warhammer used a straight linear progression from law - good - neutral - evil - chaotic (leave it up to the brits to find law and chaos more important that good and evil) and Marvel Super Heroes rewarded "moral" behavior and punished "immoral" behavior by awarding Karma or taking it away.

All alignment is meant to do, it act as a guideline for how the character acts (rather than conceding that it's just a game, so it matters not how you act), and how others, who know of him react to him.  The CE guy might be feared and respected, but the LG guy can get people to die for him.  I'm tired of dealing with sociopathic characters and characters with no more spine than Neville Disraeli.  I want characters that are heroic or villainous, not both because it's easy.  The relaxation of the alignment system leads directly to gamist play (more on that in my upcoming rant about gamism, D&D 4th ed, and why Roll-players suck).

1. It seems that you are fascinated (want /expect to be fascinated) by three things in your game, correct me if i got that wrong.

• Creating a gigantic world, a huge complex of different societes, fantastic worlds (pitch, player input)
  
• Emulating a reality (derivated attributes following some tradition of describing the physics of human action, random character creation)
  
<

Right?

2. If I got that right, if your goals are enabling players to have fun in these ways, I think you should clearly adress each one separately by a bunch of lean, focused rules; and you have to set prioritys because I expect there to be conflict between those agendas in some places. Say, if the players have fun by cocreating a huge world, are rules emulating physics the appropriate solution? Why not some kind of highly-structured metamechanical narr tool like Universalis? Say, if there is a conflict between realistic combat and fast-paced exciting combat, what to choose?
like<

Quote from: Dementia Games on November 14, 2008, 03:13:34 PM

Being that the alignment concept is possibly meh and the other aspects (D%, skill driven, etc) are nothing new to the market, your special niche in this oversaturated world could very well be the creation aspects (including the community approach to galaxy building).

[soundmasterj]

b]alignment systems<

Roll-players suckCharacter creation: <Combat Systems<Do you want your RULES to look like reality or the stories people tell when they use those rules?<Universalis<greatly

Roll-players suckCharacter creation: <Combat Systems<Do you want your RULES to look like reality or the stories people tell when they use those rules?<Universalis<greatly

[soundmasterj]

Obligatory link to TSOY / Solar System:
http://files.crngames.com/cc/tsoy/book1--rulebook.html
http://tsoy.crngames.com/

TSOY is designed so it works when you try optimizing your character. It aims to provide for BETTER stories when you do that, not worse.

Also sorry if I sounded kind of condescending up there, but I always get like that when I feel people read GNS as meaning "gamism is dumb"

[Rauðbjørn]

b]watched<is<think! Make him question the boundaries of his world, cause him to wonder "what if?"<unusual<can be narrativist, if<Every. Single. Time.<want<anyone<simulateis<think! Make him question the boundaries of his world, cause him to wonder "what if?"<unusual<can be narrativist, if<Every. Single. Time.<want<anyone<simulate

[soundmasterj]

quote]But AD&D and AD&D 2nd edition, were very much about creating the story of your character, encountering scary critters (with nasty big pointy teeth), or fiendishly clever traps, and devilishly convoluted intrigues and finding solutions for them.

[dindenver]

quote]The major empires (and some of the worlds) are pre set, as are the major races, and the rest can be made up by the players/GMs and submitted for acceptance and mapping (via an online starmap).

[Rauðbjørn]

You know, I think you may be right on a couple of points, I have not been using the terminology correctly.  I went back, and re-read the essays, and the glossary and I think I get it now.  I should have seen it, I mean the SenZar Rule was staring me in the face, and I didn't see it.  You know what gave it away?  You.

You soundmasterJ singlehandedly gave me the clues needed to understand the threat this place poses to my sanity and ability.

You misunderstand (and don't like) the Star Wars movies.  You've never played D&D.  You misunderstand Firefly.  You have no idea who some of the biggest names in Sci-Fi are, and you list, as one of your favorite authors, an experimental author that only counts as Science Fiction (as best I can tell) because all german fiction is divided into "serious" fiction and Sci-Fi.  You actualy like William Gibson.  The man hated and feared computers, Sci-Fi and RPGs (reading Gibson is important, like Joyce or Milton, but nobody likes to).  You're either 12 or you Fail at fandom.

It would seem, that I have stumbled upon the RPG equivilant of the Art Department.  The twisted phrasology, the counter-intuitive neo-logisms, the fact that everyone here seems to be concerned with the "Form" of the story, and not the "function" of the game.  You people are Poseurs. 

Unable to produce a playable game, and failing to really understand either the function of, or the creation of, you settle for appreciating the idea of an RPG and create odes to the wonderfulness of the form, but never the function.

Those that can, do.
Those that can't, teach.
Those that can't teach, write textbooks.

Sayonara Suckers, I'm off to write a game that works, if fun and will sell.  Enjoy your coffee, and mind you dont think too hard.

[Adrian F.]

You didn't mentoined Heinlein in your List,that makes all your posts invalid.

[soundmasterj]

[Dementia Games]

Sayonara Suckers?  Really?  Off to write a game that works, is fun and will sell?  Give Bill Gates my regards.  Wow, grow up man.

[Ron Edwards]

All right, let's take a look at what happened in this thread.

1. The guy showed up here in good faith and presented some game ideas.

2. People flipped their lids because he used a word ("alignment") that meant so much to them, they couldn't take the time to ask "what does that mean in play" without criticizing first.

3. Jona, never use GNS talk in First Thoughts with newcomers. Why? Because they're trying to use it to fit in without understanding it a bit (usually), not actually to apply the ideas. So when you correct them, all it means to them is a put-down, a refusal to let them fit in.

4. A geek-fight started about what kind of science fiction is good and what kind isn't.

5. Everybody used fake courtesy in practice. It is absolutely wrong to use phrases like "Don't try to win an argument against me." I don't care what you meant by it, it could have been the most benevolent and helpful intention in the world, but it will be read as "Fuck you, I'm bigger than you."

6. You all insulted him, shut him out, shut down any talk about his game, and basically insulted me and this site in doing so.

All of you have just conformed to every bad stereotype of what people claim about the Forge. This is not acceptable. Do not ever treat anyone this way at this website again.

Best, Ron