Not enough "fantasy" in my fantasy world

[Egonblaidd]

Some additional thoughts I had:

Perhaps it might be better to change the Discipline morality to Passion-Discipline-Coldness, which reflects self control and emotion.

Anyway, I was looking over John Kirk's Design Patterns of Successful Role-Playing Games, specifically his Alignment and Idiom Patterns, since they kind of characterize what I'm trying to do with my morality system, and one of the things he said about the Idiom system was that there is normally some kind of gauge that points are added to when the character behaves according to his idiom and points are subtracted from when the character behaves contrary to his idiom.  So I was thinking I could have a similar thing.  For example, let's say in Peace-Justice-Violence you have a 3 (slightly violent), so when you are faced with a situation that you approach with a slightly violent action you would gain a Justice point.  If the action is too violent or not violent enough (or rather, it is specifically Peaceful) then you might risk losing a Justice point.  One possible use of "Morality Points" might be that once enough (10?) are accumulated then you can spend them to make the next action that fits that morality succeed automatically.  The problem with this sort of thing is that it might make certain moralities less relevant (for example, the Justice morality might come into play all the time, while the Charity morality might almost never com into play), thus demeaning that morality.  The advantage is that it should shake up groups quite a bit if one player wants to do one action, from which he stands to gain a Morality point, while the other players would risk losing a Morality point by allowing/participating in that action.  It might make better sense to apply the gaining or losing of Morality points to a situation rather than individual actions.  For example, you might gain a Justice point by attacking a group of bandits, rather than every time you hit the bandit with your weapon.  In this case, it might be appropriate to allow one point to be spent for an automatic success of an individual action.  So, when you attack the group of bandits and gain a Justice point, you can spend it to get an automatic hit during the battle.  Although some other use and/or bonus/penalty might be appropriate for Morality points.

This also begs the question of whether or not moralities should garner Morality points AND provide a passive bonus/penalty to actions (not to be confused with the Morality points applying such a passive bonus).  Also, should moralities change during play, or remain fixed after character generation?  I would think they COULD change, but it would be under drastic circumstances, such a character losing faith in his religion or suffering the loss of someone close to him.  Another possibility is, instead of gaining Morality points, to alter that character's morality.  For example, if a character does a violent enough action, he will move up a notch on the Violence scale.  A better way to do this might be to combine this with Morality points.  Instead of players losing Morality points when they behave contrary to their moral code, their moral code changes (the direction it changes in should be fairly apparent in any given case).  In any case, there should be some leeway where Morality points are neither gained nor lost, as the action is only a slight deviation from that person's moral code.  I think I like the idea of changing the person's morality better then deducting a Morality point.  It somehow feels more threatening than simply deducting a point.

[Egonblaidd]

I see people are getting tired of my insanely long posts.  I can't help it that I tend to ramble.  Anyway, I talked with my friend and he really liked the deficiency-moderation-excess idea.  So here are my thoughts so far.  I can either go for a simple system with fewer moralities, or I can go for a more complex one that offers more choices, it's the difference between 4 and 12.  Here's one I whipped up based on the four Western Cardinal Virtues (which bore a striking resemblance to the four virtues on that Muslim site I originally got the idea of the deficiency-moderation-excess arrangement from) and the Seven Deadly Sins.

Sloth-Temperance-Greed
Foolishness-Prudence-Slyness
Cowardice-Fortitude-Rashness
Corruption-Justice-Wrath

And here's the more complex one.

Peace-Justice-Violence                  amount of force used to solve problems
Death-Humanity-Life                     one's value and view of life
Naivety-Mercy-Vengeance             how evil is dealt with
Fear-Courage-Recklessness           how one regards personal safety
Blasphemy-Piety-Fanaticism          how one feels toward religion
Selfishness-Duty-Myrmidon           loyalty and obedience of authority
Deception-Honor-Arrogance          one's code of conduct
Manipulation-Honesty-Legalistic    the importance placed on words
Passion-Discipline-Coldness          one's measure of self control and emotion
Malice-Charity-Pity                         how one deals with the less fortunate
Poverty-Contentment-Greed         one's value of the material
Abnegation-Chastity-Indulgence   one's value of worldly pleasures

Personally, I think I'm more in favor of the complex one, since it gives more options and allows for a better representation of different moralities.  For example, a Hindu could max out Humanity on the Life end to represent how they value all forms of life.  That kind of idea doesn't really fit into the Western Cardinal Virtues, Westerners have typically held human life in high regard (more or less), but we have always eaten animals as food, so this kind of idea doesn't quite resonate with us.  Also, with this system someone (like me) could properly represent themselves by putting points toward both Violence and Life; we tend to be a bit forceful sometimes but that does not necessarily equate to killing.

Anyway, here's what I'm thinking for a reward/punishment system to enforce moral conduct.  First, it will be on a situation by situation basis, rather than an action by action (e.g. individual skill tests) basis.  Characters can act contrary to their moral code, but their moral code will change toward the direction they are acting (i.e. a Peaceful person committing a violent act will shift toward Violence), and they might incur some kind of "guilt" penalty for a certain period of time to represent their inner turmoil as they struggle with their conscience.  Actions conforming to that character's moral code will generate a Morality point for that morality, which can be spent for an automatic success on any single resolution that fits that morality and that does not contradict that character's moral code.  Actions that neither contradict nor conform to a characters moral code have no effect.

So, for example, let's say we have Bob the Orator.  Bob hears about an evil tax that will further increase the poverty of the poor and the wealth of the rich.  Since Bob has a Justice of -8 (very Peaceful), he makes a resounding speech calling for the Senate to strike down the tax and not allow it to come into effect.  This action agrees with Bob's morality, and so he gains a Justice point.  Later, as Bob is walking home, he is attacked in an alleyway by thugs sent from a political rival.  He can't escape, and he doesn't want to die.  He has no choice but to either fight or die.  He can't use his Justice point because fighting is Violent and opposed to his morality.  However, he manages to get lucky and beats off his attackers.  The resulting conflict leaves him in turmoil, and his Justice goes from -8 to -7.  Now that he has experienced violence, he will have greater tendencies to use it again, though it would take a lot for him to actually embrace violence.  If Bob's Justice had been closer to -3 or -2 he could have used his Justice point in the combat, since self defense, though not in accord with his morality, is justified and not opposed to his morality either.

Should I create a new thread for the morality discussion?

[Vulpinoid]

And here's the more complex one.

If you don't go further with the more complex one...I'm stealing it.

It's very close to something I've been trying to wrap my head around. Something that has blocked me over the last couple of weeks.

V

[Egonblaidd]

Sorry, I think I've decided to go ahead and use it, but you're free to tweak it or even copy it if you want to.  I'd think it would require at least a slight adaptation to your system or something, though.  I mean, technically you can copy my entire system as long as you explain it in your own words and there's nothing I can do to stop you.  And if you can make a decent game with it, then go for it.

(Besides, I have a tendency to not finish things I start, so if that happens someone might as well do something with my ideas so they aren't wasted.)

[Ayyavazi]

Egon,

Point taken about the world already existing. So I guess my question becomes, "Why are there still liches, etc, in your world?" They should all address morality somehow.

Also, I like your scales mostly. I don't have the time (at the moment) to go into any depth-filled suggestions, but I had an idea I think you might want to use.

What if the only stats in your game were your morality gauges?

Instead of having one -10 to 10 scale per gauge, what if each step had its own -10 to 10 scale, and once you hit "11" you spill over onto -10 of the next rating instead. So "11" Pride would actually be -10 Arrogance.  You could even do away with negatives in this case, and go from 0 to 10 with each. Then, whenever attempting an action related to a given morality, you roll dice according to the appropriate stat. If you are taking an action that is prideful, a success makes you more proud, as it should. But too much pride, and too much success, and you will become arrogant.

This has the effect of making your entire system about your moralities. That in and of itself would be interesting. From there, you could allow small-scale conflicts, like fights, be resolved by the violence rolls, with the winner becoming more violent. You could even increase the size of the gauges if you needed to for this eventuality, like 0 to 20.

Or heres another idea. Make different religions spill over at different points. Maybe the islamic based religion is prone to certain excesses or finds it harder to escape certain depravities. Those scales don't spill over at 10, maybe at 15 though. Likewise, maybe its easier to go from pride to arrogance in one religion, so it only takes 5 pride to get to 1 arrogance. This makes religious choice have a huge impact on the way your character plays out, especially if the only stats in the game are the morality ones.

Just something to chew on,

--Norm