Spirits and Other Magicks

[Lyrax]

Hey, I'm just trying to start a little conversation here concerning spirits (lesser, regular and greater varieties).

One of my players (more specifically, the one of my players who can actually use magic) is going to start mucking about with spirits and shtuff.  Here's my take on it.

Lesser Spirits: Spirits of lesser creatures, such as animals or perhaps trees (which raises an interesting question: do plants have spirits?).  Trollspawn often fit in this category, as might truly petty humans, though the latter is uncommon.  Lesser spirits are usually brutish, and nearly always obey commands (if the command is understood).  They can manipulate nearly any body a sorceror gives them, but will have little to add to it.

Spirits: Spirits are the life-forms of regular human beings, perhaps even some Siehe.  Spirits are much more autonomous than their lesser counterparts since they are capable of reason.  They will speak, once given a body, as equals to the sorceror.  They will point out flaws in his plans, if they see such flaws, and may even try to kill the sorceror.

Greater Spirits: Greater Spirits are the life-essences of the noble and great ones.  They are nearly always heroes (or villains) of legend: sorcerors, generals, kings, warriors, emperors, and everyone else who is thought to be second to the Gods.

Costs for summoning/imprisoning

Lesser spirits: They simply want a body.  They know not any other desire, once they have passed to the next life.

Spirits: [Here's where I need help the most] I think a spirit would have some unfinished business on earth that he would need to take care of, whether it is to bring the downfall of an enemy or to further a certain cause is left up to the Seneschal.

Greater Spirits: I imagine that a greater spirit would be a good negotiator, and would have a goal of his own.  A greater spirit might want to take over a country (or a continent!), or might wish to overthrow an entire religion.  Greater spirits should be considered even by the sorceror as equals or even as superiors, and they will almost certainly command due respect.

Okay, you've heard me ramble.  Now I want to know what you think about spirits.  If you're too tired, busy or lazy to write a dissertation like I just did, just write about whatever you have the best idea, or whatever you hate most about what I just wrote (c'mon, there's gotta be something you disagree with me here!).  Mostly, I need ideas on what to do if my sorceror starts making golems/elementals.  Obviously, I'm not going to punish the man for making golems, but I need to have a set of rules governing them.  For example, if my sorceror wants to cast a movement spell or two and a glamour spell on some air, can he imprison a spirit to it and make a fire elemental?  How could it be killed?  Or a gargoyle?  How could a stone gargoyle with a spirit be killed?

[Jaif]

I considered humans who were buried in mass graves with minimal rites to be "lesser spirits".  In other words, I gave value to the ceremony used to bury them. I also considered circumstance: a human who died in a particularly glorious or vile manner may leave a powerful spirit as well.

A price I've used is blood, specifically a health point.  The idea is that the dead want a taste of life, and you're giving them a little bit of that.

-Jeff

[Lyrax]

That's interesting, and certainly not anything that strays too far from the boundaries of myth.

But would it do to give a genius who died of the plague a lesser spirit, while a petty, greedy merchant with an extravagant ceremony has a greater spirit?

And what about animals?  Siehe?  Trollspawn?  Trees?  Plants?  Do these things have spirits?  What would they act like?

[Silanthous]

Hello everyone, the sorcerer Lyrax was discussing in this post is me. and i'm also very intrested in hearing what you guys think about this. Especially in reguards ro creating elementals, what rules and regulations should govern their creation and opperation.

[Jaif]

I never considered elementals as part of my world.

I think the key is to list all summonables in your campaign, and then divy them up.  Maybe in your campain all humans are simply lesser spirits, and it goes up from there.  In someone else's campaign, humans are the greater spirits.

I think this is one of those "it depends" situations where the rules are more a construction kit then they are an encyclopedia.

-Jeff

[Lyrax]

Yes, it is one of those "it depends" situations.  What I want is to hear what rulings you would make.  You already know what rulings I have made/am planning to make.

In my campaign, elementals don't exist as summonables.  They exist as two parts:

1) A physical "body" that is made from earth, stone, or some other material that is enchanted with movement and perhaps sculpture that it may flex and move.

2) A spirit, housed in the body, that manipulates the enchantments.

In essence, Silanthous is planning to imprison minor (lesser human, animal, etc.) spirits into enchanted gargoyle forms.  With any luck, they won't even kill him once they are so imprisoned.

[Jaif]

I hadn't planned out spirits, mostly because I don't need to - none my PCs are, or want to be sorcs.

I'm running a 4th age MERP campain, modified for my own strange quirks.  I've made some rulings about spirits, but I doubt I've gone far enough for your purposes:

1) Human spirits were beyond the power of the valar once the crossed over.  So, if a human dies and he crosses over, that's it, he can't be summoned.

2) Human spirits can take their time crossing over.  This is driven in large part by the nature of their death, the way they are buried, and anything "undone" in life.  In general, the more time since their death, the less powerful they are.

3) I don't measure by accomplishments.  A powerful local leader who was extremely active in life may die quite satisfied, have a decent burial, and cross over.  The peasant who spent his life jealous of the leader, and hating all the upper class in general, could be buried unceremoniously in a mass grave and leave a vengeful spirit behind.

4) I had vague thoughts that spirits of the rivers, trees, what have you can spontaneously generate due to people's beliefs, and that such spirits would grow in power over time.

5) For strength, humans would mostly be lesser spirits, but could span all the way to greater depending on the circumstances (e.g. Nazgul & Wights were major spirits).  An Elven spirit is always greater, and in fact the spirits of the great elves, along with the maiar, etc, are beyond magical means.  The other spirits (rivers, hills, and trees) would be normal spirits mostly, greater in some cases.

The only reason I thought about this was undead, because I have necros summoning undead for quick & dirty purposes.  I ruled that they could summon 4 bodies @200 pounds (assuming that skeletons & little bits of dehydrated flesh don't weigh a lot).  I also said that you could always find some lesser spirits floating around a cemetary, and that the price would be blood, represented by a health point for all 4.

-Jeff