Weapons, what are they good for?

[jp_miller]

Hi all, I'm in the throes of inventing a YARPG (Yet Another Role Playing Game), it has a Journey to the West/Mahabharata flavour. As you can imagine there is a hellovalota Kewl Powerz and demon ass kicking. It's all way up in the air at the moment and currently I am considering weapons; their meaning and usage.

To me it seems weapons are a 'huge' part of a hero's makeup. Think of a hero and I bet you instantly think of their weapon; Thor has his Hammer, Pigsy fights with a Plough, Arjuna his Bow, Wonder Woman her Noose, Luke Skywalker the Lightsabre etc. Likewise sometimes when I think of weapons I instantly associate them with a hero. When I see a claymore I think of the Highlander, a Mace - Hanuman, the nunchicks – bruce Lee etc.

Why are weapons synonymous, inexorably linked, to some heroes and what function do weapons serve in a role playing game? And most importantly, how can I make them an interesting facet of gameplay?

In a lot of RPG's weapons are based on attack speed and damage. Yawn. Is this an attempt to replicate reality? Because in the real world weapons are a lot more than this, they were designed for a specific purpose. When swords and axes went blunt and got deflected off heavy armour people used bludgeoning weapons like the mace and war hammer. In game terms you might say weapons give a bonus in certain situations. I did a search here at the Forge and came up with this post "Concerning Weapons"

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=27634.0

Luke gives an interesting example of how weapons are only effective in certain situations in Mouse Guard. I'm not familiar with the rules of Mouse Guard but I am assuming this idea is based on the real world usage of weapons. For example, Dungeons and Dragons does this with the dagger, which gives a +1 bonus to Sneak Attacks.

So one approach to weapons is to take the Real Time Strategy Game, or Paper, Scissors, Rock approach and grant a situational bonus e.g.:
     Mace: +1 vs. heavy armour
     Lance: +1 when on horseback     
     Polearm: + 1 vs. Cavalry charges
etc.

This idea can also extend into fantasy and the magic thereof. For example a Ghost Sword might grant a bonus against ethereal beings, a dagger might glow when orcs are around, or a sword might 'sing' and bewilder opponents or captivate onlookers.

Sometimes weapons are treated like sidekicks and have their own personal stats and traits and even personality. The weapon may be powerful but demanding (Stormbringer), granting the character a great damage potential but taxing them in another way.

So, I hope you can help me out here folks and tell me about the most interesting use of weapons you've ever seen in a game. How do you make weapons important to a character and how do you make them effective in the system?

[Callan S.]

I think it comes from the weapon reflecting a very primal set of personal beliefs the character has. Look at those weapons and think about the way each character lives their lives - the weapon is a reflection of the man.

Probably really useless idea came to mind, that's kinda kinky - characters have a weapon, but it's never really named or described. As the player plays out their character, other players get to describe aspects of his weapon - like it being wood or steel, or having a chain or hand guard, etc. Over time his weapon comes into existance from how he acts, or atleast from how the other players judge the characters actions.

Red wine will make you think this stuff.

[jp_miller]

Yeah, I've got a good load of beer under my belt as I post this too!

But that's exactly it, they are reflections of the character. The war hammer can only suit a big gruff n tough dude who has very little tactics other than 'smash it'. The rapier can only be handled by a thin person with finesse, wit, and intellignece, the bow - someone who has a great deal of patience, concentration and focus.

Maybe that's it. That's what I'm looking for but how does it all fit in a game though?

[jp_miller]

So, to categorize the use of weapons for RPG's, I will make an attempt and hope you will add. I hope you can help me get to the bottom of weapons usage in RPG's and bring out some interesting takes on them. Many of these uses cross over but so far I've garnered that weapons are primarily used as:

Functional in Combat
Weapons are specifically designed to counter particular defenses or make attacks more efficient. e.g. Bludgeoning weapons are used by police because they are 'less lethal', and heavier bludgeoning weapons were more effective against strong armour. Daggers are designed for swift attacks, bows for striking targets before they close in etc. In a fantasy setting this can also extend to magic functionality.

Stereotypes

They may aid in representing a stereotype or archtypal character. I've got no problems with this, imaginationas are flimsy things and stereotypes help us visualize strong imagery. We're all aware of these; barbarians or simple folk use primative weapons, suave antagonists use flashy swords, sneaky assassins throw daggers etc. It's also a logical thing here, I mean, if you are 7 foot tall and built like a brick shithouse you're most effective weapon would be a bigass mace or broadsword. Likewise, if you're a scrawny wizard, a wand might be more effective. There are of course many exceptions to this that challenge our ideas of archetypes. Gandalf the wizard, for example, was a master swordsman.

Symbolism
As Callan suggested, weapons might be a reflection of a characters inner nature. For some reason when I think of swords I think of fire and the mind. Is this a Tarot thing? Likewise, clubs remind me of the element Earth. To wield a bow effectively you need a great deal of patience, perseverance and concentration. You also need strength. I find it odd that bows are often related to dexterity when in fact strength is a more appropriate prerequisite. Anyone who's ever done archery will know that you are not dodging about avoiding incoming attacks but rather standing still and pulling as hard you can. The stronger you are the bigger the bow, the faster and more deadly your arrows will be. Anyway, back to symbolism. Weapons can tell us symbolically about the nature of a character.

Entities
As I mentioned before, weapons can have an entire personality of their own. In this way they might be entirely disassociated with the character (or not) and stand on their own. This take is probably more trouble than it's worth when playing a game but interesting nonetheless.

I'm not so sure what exaclty I want weapons to do in my game but I am looking for some major inspiration. Care to add?

[chronoplasm]

Yeah, most of the time when you see weapons in RPGs they are little more than list items on a table. They are just names with a few numbers next to them.
I think it would be cool to play a game where your characters signature weapon gets its own character sheet much like mechs get their own sheets in some giant-robot games. Your weapon could have its own unique abilities, defenses, skills, backstory, relationships, etc.

It isn't a paper and pencil game, but I do like how weapons are handled in Suikoden II as opposed to how they are handled in games like Final Fantasy or WoW. In most CRPGs, you end up ditching your low level weapons as soon as they are made obsolete by the bigger and flashier weapons you find during the course of the game. In Suikoden your characters generally keep the same weapons during the course of the game but upgrade them at a blacksmith's job as they level up. Since magic items in 4E D&D have levels like the PCs, I'm strongly considering allowing weapons and armor to gain XP and level up just like the PCs do.

[JoyWriter]

Absolutely nothing, hurr!

One way to represent weapons is the "appropriate tools" method. They are required for a style of fighting, and when you don't have one you have to switch your skills, maybe form another martial art. This puts weapons in perhaps a more appropriate place; in the combat section!

On the subject of upgrading weapons, one strange game I came across had magic items turn into portals to a subplane, and and defeating things in that subplane empowered the weapon! Naturally in tabletop games you can imagine people using that to hide inside their swords, chop people in half using a closing portal, or any number of strange innovations, but I thought it was a pretty amusing unification of game mechanics.

[jp_miller]

Hey thanks all,

I've decide to do a bit of all of the above and roll weapons into abilities. Fighting styles will have some definate personality reflections, and enable you to do unique things with a chosen weapon.

Cheers.

[Anthony Sheets]

Probably really useless idea came to mind, that's kinda kinky - characters have a weapon, but it's never really named or described. As the player plays out their character, other players get to describe aspects of his weapon - like it being wood or steel, or having a chain or hand guard, etc. Over time his weapon comes into existance from how he acts, or atleast from how the other players judge the characters actions.

I really, really like this idea. It got a lot of gears turning in my head.

[trueplay]

i agree!

[flossy]

I do like the idea that weapons gain characteristics as they develop in history. Owning the old sword of Warmaster Derek is much more flavoursome that having a +2 sword. The more developed the history, the better the weapon I think is the general direction to go, much better than constantly throwing away your treasured sword because you found another one which has bigger numbers associated with it.

[drkrash]

In my game, weapons serve no purpose beyond being melee or ranged.  They are merely effects of their other far flashier powers.

[dindenver]

JP,
  Maybe you can use weapons as enhancements. Maybe a Bow lets you add your perception or concentration to your attack roll, instead of dexterity. Maybe a better way might be that for every combat trait a weapon possesses, it must have a non-combat trait. Like if your Bow has an Armor Piercing Trait, it also has a Woodmen Trait (or Willpower or ?). The idea being that you can't train with a weapon and not have some part of its nature rub off on you.
  I dunno, it is a very formulaic and direct approach tot he problem, but it could work for your purposes.

[Judd]

I love how Mouse Guard handles weapons, with the weapons giving advantages in very specific situations.

But that doesn't feel like the type of weapons you are talking about.  You are talking about weapons with names, with histories and the ability to define a hero far beyond just a +1 or even the ability to toss around lightning.

I'd go back and re-read that source material you talk about, dense amazing stuff, and just think about weapons and how they are depicted.  There might be articles somewhere in some religious studies or folk lore journal about weapons in those texts that might be worth some digging and a peak too.

Good luck!

[jp_miller]

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies, there are some interesting ideas in there. So, one thing I'm thinking of doing is keeping it pretty simple as far as 'weapons stats' go, they get 1 bonus to something. This method will also help players choose the type of character they play. To give you an example:

Cutlass: You get a bonus when on ships or in tight spaces.
Bow: You get a bonus when shooting at targets at long distance.
Spear: You get a bonus when hunting.
Polearm: You get a bonus when fighting mounted units
Sword: You get a bonus in any formally arranged combat for honour or show (e.g. Gladatorial contest or a challenge to a duel).

etc. etc.

So I think this brings out the weapons purpose as well as the nature of the character.

[drkrash]

I think that sounds very good.