To the bottom of simplicity, layers approach.

[Jasper Flick]

Callan, I make no claim that games crash an burn without 'narrative', imagination, immersion, or whatever. I solely point out that if you desire X, then you won't be helped by a game that works fine without X. In this thread X was 'narrative'.

Putting me - or anyone - in some conveniently labeled box you can feel superior to doesn't help anyone.

Please go ahead, drift 3:16 - or Capes - by ignoring all 'narrative' rules, and play it. Then we'll have a concrete AP to talk about.

Whoops, discussion loop detected. I'll cease and bow out of this thread.

[Megoru]

I didn't thought the matter was so serious... please feel free to forget about this discussion. I will consider it closed.

I will post in play test if it actually happens I get to play the game.

[Jasper Flick]

(Don't worry Megoru. Imagine a neutral voice when you read it, not an angry one. This isn't Internet drama, we're just not wearing mittens. At least that's how I see it.)

[Callan S.]

I'll be cheeky and assume I can do a wrap up post.

Ok, with creativity as I understand it, if you try and force creativity, it clams up. You can only provide an opportunity for creativity to sprout and grow, you can't demand it poofs into existance. That means making a game that functionally provides an opportunity for creativity/narrative, even if no narrative is currently present. I'm not pitching this at a moral level either. I'm saying this is my understanding of the technical details of the psychology - you can't force creativity like you can't fold an elbow backwards.

And in terms of pidgion holeing for superiority, I remember when GNS theory was often called a method for doing that as well. Usually by people who had an inclination toward one and saw the others as 'errors' or abberations (heck, Look at Ron's essays on GNS and how he says he once thought of gamists as space aliens). I know it's a pain in the arse for someone to sound like they know anything about you - I wouldn't do so for it's own sake, except that what I'm pretty sure is a viable, good potential for fun approach is being called an error, just like simulationists used to call G or N an error (or N called G or S error, etc). "Don't advise closing the file yet, even if it seems all sideways", is what I want to say.

Ok, that's my wrap up post.