trying to figure out where to put perception

[punkbohemian]

Is the elemental part a side-effect, or is it a core part of your game?

Well...yes and no and yes again. The elemental system, as it stands is based on the setting relgion's understanding of the nature of the universe. One of the core themes/goals of the game is for the players to discover that this isn't true, and to search for the true nature of their world/existence.

That being said, this "false" elemental system is going to correlate with the "true" nature of being, but the difference is the relationship between these "elemental" entities.

Hand-eye coordination and spatial sense is not related to the creative ability to paint, nor to the ability to sense an ambush. You can probably sell me on the photographers who can spot the odd person in a crowd, but not on the hunter who excels at archery also being an excellent judge of character.

I agree with that, but the judge of character bit would fall under Spirit (intuition) with this system. But, considering what you said, answer me these questions. Do you think a blacksmith would likely be better at pick pocketing or sailing? Or, do you think a knife thrower would be better at fist-fighting or surgery? And why?

Looking at these questions, I could possibly see splitting them down the middle, putting Archery and Throwing under dexterity (things flying through the air probably jives better with a wind element) and leaving Concealment and Craft under Acuity. I'm sure it could work, but I'm not sure if I'm 100% happy with the arrangement.

[chance.thirteen]

Well my actual point is that things that even typical rpg games pair up aren't really directly related. For those games and your own the question may be simply what do we think is appropriately correlated. Legend of the Five Rings and Weapons of the Gods did a fine job of equating Japanese and Chinese elemental theory into the groupings. And that's what you should do.

My caveat is really to break apart the pairings from our world and it's assumptions and go with your elements instead. Perhaps the blacksmith is best at sailing because he must show his strength in his work, yet bend to the properties of what he works with. The sea would like that better than someone whose approach is to stand from afar and try to be precise in their effects on it.

[lumpley]

Hey, so Punkbohemian, I know I'm making a pest of myself, but any chance you could tell us what perception skills mean to the players and the GM who are playing your game? I get that they mean something in your game world, and that's important, but it's also important that they mean something in the real world too.

A bishop in chess doesn't only represent a religious personage, right? It also has a way that it moves in the real world, on the board. Perception skills in your game don't only represent the characters' perception, they also have a real-world function to the people playing the game. Tell us what that is! Tell us how you imagine the GM and the players using them.

-Vincent

[Mike Sugarbaker]

So I just had a goofy thought.

Reading this:

The elemental system, as it stands is based on the setting relgion's understanding of the nature of the universe. One of the core themes/goals of the game is for the players to discover that this isn't true, and to search for the true nature of their world/existence.

And then this:

Hand-eye coordination and spatial sense is not related to the creative ability to paint, nor to the ability to sense an ambush. You can probably sell me on the photographers who can spot the odd person in a crowd, but not on the hunter who excels at archery also being an excellent judge of character.

I agree with that, but the judge of character bit would fall under Spirit (intuition) with this system. But, considering what you said, answer me these questions. Do you think a blacksmith would likely be better at pick pocketing or sailing? Or, do you think a knife thrower would be better at fist-fighting or surgery? And why?

...got me thinking about how it's understandable that you're having trouble where to put perception: it's everywhere. After all, as is so often said, perception is reality.

Then it hit me: your game is about people who have completely codified reality into a system that's going to turn out to be false. These people believe they understand the universe completely, and (presumably) pass down this understanding from generation to generation.

Why would they believe that they need perception?

The whole notion of perception might even be taboo, an insult to the code.

So maybe Perception shouldn't fit in your schema at all. Maybe the thing your game is about should be the thing that's absent. (Others around these parts have sometimes called this notion "the fruitful void," if you'd like to do an interesting search.)

Just a thought. (ooh - or maybe you don't get perception until you "level up" and abandon the rest of the schema!)

[chance.thirteen]

That reminds me of the veils between the divine and humans in certain mystic thought. As you learn, the veils are parted.