Elsewhere - A newly created table-top RPG setting and system.

[canormorum]

Just looking for a little feedback and critique.  Been lurking the forums awhile now.  Let me know what you think.  I'm still working out some details and filling out the world so consider this a work in progress.Thanks.

http://canormorum.blogspot.com/2010/01/i-guess-this-is-as-good-time-as-any-to.html

[Vulpinoid]

Interesting ideas...

...I'm surprised that you think tabletop gaming is dead though...

V

[canormorum]

Maybe, dead, was a poor choice of words.  In my little part of the world there are not any groups I know of that still play.  Or maybe I just need to get out more

What did you think of the system in general?  I was going for simplistic and easy to learn, something fast paced.  Do the numbers look right to you?  I haven't had the opportunity to playtest so it's all guesswork at this point.

[canormorum]

Should I assume this is a good start since there is no criticism?

[hix]

Welcome to the Forge, canormorum!

It will probably take a day or two for people to start giving you feedback. Posting here tends to be slower and more deliberate.

I'd suggest that you could give us a brief (2-3 sentences) description of your game, and maybe a bit of a sales pitch for why someone should read it. I think it'd be great to have more than just the link in this thread, to give us a sense of what you're trying to do.

[Vulpinoid]

That would have been my follow up series of questions.

The mechanisms look pretty reasonable from first glance, the setting seems like it's got potential.

Now you've got some ideas hashed out, and you're ready for some public dialogue...let's move on to some of the meaty questions.

Why did you write the game? (What do you think you've put in this game that other people haven't put in theirs?)

What do you envision the characters doing in your game? (Do they fight the other races? Do they dig up ancient secrets? Is it a political game?)

What do the players do? (Do they control a single character? Do they play as a pack of animaloids?)

If you haven't thought about these, now might be a good time.

V

[canormorum]

Why did you write the game? (What do you think you've put in this game that other people haven't put in theirs?)

I wanted a medieval RPG setting without all of the magical elements, something more realistic and believable.  But I also wanted to have some elements that parallel spellcasting and powers for the sake of fun.  The solution was to have the game take place on an alien world where creatures have naturally evolved those abilities.  There's no need for spiritual or magical explanations.  Creatures on our own planet are capable of feats that would seem magical if done by a human being.  I also wanted to avoid the typical fantasy races and creatures.  No elves, dragons, fairies and the like.  There are also no humans, only human-like creatures with behaviors much like our own.  It's more science fiction than fantasy but technologically limited to the medieval era.  As far as I know there's really no other game setting like it.  It's familiar yet alien at the same time.

As far as the system is concerned I wanted something that could be learned very quickly by new players and one that would keep the pace of combat swift.  You should be able to play this game without ever referring to the rule book and spend the majority of the time "playing".  At the same time there needs to be some very concrete physics that make the world believable.  The rules I've set in place reflect the physics of the world we are already familiar with.  This is still on going process to find the right balance between too much complexity and not enough. 

What do you envision the characters doing in your game? (Do they fight the other races? Do they dig up ancient secrets? Is it a political game?)

The six playable races are civilized and rely on one another for trade and mutual protection from greater enemies.  They have common ground in that regard.  That's not to say that there wouldn't be internal struggles and in-fighting amongst various tribes, classes or guilds.  I imagine that the "known" world is filled with ruins of older civilizations.  These ruins could contain great treasures, artifacts or knowledge to be sought after.  I envision maybe another continent or continents being discovered that provide motivation for exploring new areas and encountering new races, creatures or technologies.  The players individual motivations are their own of course but there is certainly a great benefit for them in working together to achieve goals and to overcome great obstacles.  The possibilities are really only limited by the physics of the game world and their imaginations.   


What do the players do? (Do they control a single character? Do they play as a pack of animaloids?)

It would be the traditional RPG party with each player performing an essential role (class) with it's own strengths and weaknesses.  They would need to combine their talents to succeed.

[Mike Sugarbaker]

What are your goals for this game? I see on your blog post that you want to self-publish it eventually (you already have! But I assume you mean in print), but that's not difficult (or at least, it's straightforward); I imagine the real story is you want to self-publish and want your game to matter somehow. How? If you can't quantify it, you're virtually guaranteed not to get it. (Also, have you read the stuff in the Articles section?)

You also mention the Microsoft Surface stuff in your blog post. I assume you were inspired by the Surfacescapes demo done by a team at the CMU Entertainment Technology Center. Do you have anything in mind design-wise that you're going to add to Elsewhere to make it a good fit for this sort of technology?

Lastly: is there a real name we can call you by?

[canormorum]

Well the part on my blog is just a sample and more of a beta than anything.  The full text would include detailed histories of the world, descriptions of the various settings, maps, illustrations, equipment, GM information and so on.  I think offering the basic rule system and basic setting for free isn't a bad idea though.  I would probably try to sell PDFs and use Amazon's Createspace for physical copies of the complete volume.  I can't afford to buy an ISBN or pay for traditional publishing, I do have a family to support.   Demoing the game at cons could be possible I suppose.  A campaign expansion for the discovered continents would be a logical next step but that's getting way ahead.  As an IP it could be used in many ways, art prints, t-shirts, a video game, action figures, a tv series or movie.  Dreaming again, aren't I? 

I was referring to the Surfacescapes demo indeed.  It's exciting, I see this as the future of tabletop gaming.  Augmented reality could also factor in.  As far as using those technologies I'm not a programmer, I'm an artist but I could see Elsewhere being played in much the same way as the D&D demo.

My real name is Nicolas Evans, I use a pseudonym because if you have ever tried to Google my real name you will see very quickly how many people share that name already.  Canor Morum started out as a stage name when I was the lead vocalist for an extinct heavy metal band and I wore armor while performing, weird I know, and it just kind of stuck.  It's Latin, roughly translates to Melody Black, a reference to an Alice Cooper song.

Thanks for the dialogue by the way, it keeps me thinking and gets me inspired.

[hix]

Hi Nicholas,

I really like the sound of your setting, and the various races you can play. I'm hoping that you can expand on your answer to this question:

What do you envision the characters doing in your game? (Do they fight the other races? Do they dig up ancient secrets? Is it a political game?)

The six playable races are civilized and rely on one another for trade and mutual protection from greater enemies.  They have common ground in that regard.  That's not to say that there wouldn't be internal struggles and in-fighting amongst various tribes, classes or guilds.  I imagine that the "known" world is filled with ruins of older civilizations.  These ruins could contain great treasures, artifacts or knowledge to be sought after.  I envision maybe another continent or continents being discovered that provide motivation for exploring new areas and encountering new races, creatures or technologies.  The players individual motivations are their own of course but there is certainly a great benefit for them in working together to achieve goals and to overcome great obstacles.  The possibilities are really only limited by the physics of the game world and their imaginations.

At the moment, it's still not quite clear to me what the characters would do in your game. You've described the potential for inter-group rivalries, and that setting will provide lots of opportunities for exploration and tomb-raiding.

Imagine that we've created our characters and are sitting down at your table to play a game. What do we need to do next to play the game?

Do the players need to come up with starting situations to resolve? Is there a GM who has creates a ruin to explore, or a cast of characters to meet?

What would be your advice to someone who wants to run Elsewhere?

[canormorum]

Ah, well, the GM would provide some direction by presenting opportunities.  Describing the current environment, far off curious locales, conflicts, mysteries, world events, and the old stand-by, quest giving npcs.  But as any GM knows it's ultimately up to the players where they will go and what they will do when they get there.  I will include some adventure ideas in the section on GMing and the description of the setting itself can provide some inspiration.  Mysterious ruins for the curious exploring type player, power struggles between nations/tribes/guilds/individuals for the politically inclined, and the thrill of hunting down exotic creatures and defeating powerful enemies for the hack and slash type player.  Ideally, these aspects could all be combined into a single adventure.  It's really up to the players how they want to play the game.  A good GM will try to provide some opportunity for each player to make use of their talents and figuring out the play style they enjoy most.  If no one is having fun, if nothing is happening, it's up to the GM to make something happen and kick the story into high gear.

These are familiar concepts to anyone who has experience running games but I understand the need to explain them to new players.  I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel.  Perhaps a general introduction to RPGs, glossary of terms, and section for first-time GMs is needed.

[Mike Sugarbaker]

Dreaming again, aren't I?

Well, never say never, but as far as expectations go... you should really have a look at this.

The reason I ask about your goals is this: the bar has been raised lately on independent RPG publishers. (The floor has also been raised, fortunately; it's hard to print yourself into the red when Lulu.com is there, although you can still mess up by paying for lots of art or something.) By the "bar" I mean what qualifies as the "same old thing." It's fine to have a game where the GM lays out possible things to do and the players respond, but if your game does nothing to prevent a GM from laying out a bunch of stuff the players find boring, then it isn't meeting the bar anymore. (Doing something to prevent this case isn't the same as always preventing it, which would be impossible.) It has to do more than assume that everyone at the table is fully bought in; it has to give GMs (and players!) tools for getting on the same page and getting the game running on at least a few, if not all, cylinders. And merely describing a setting doesn't seem to work for people as such a tool.

You say, "If no one is having fun, if nothing is happening, it's up to the GM to make something happen and kick the story into high gear." The GM has a choice of which system she's going to use; now that she has the option, she's going to choose one that makes that job easier. What is your design work going to do for her? It had better be compelling, or the sales you get off of a con demo won't translate into play at anyone else's table.

You also cite a bunch of player types and say, "Ideally, these aspects could all be combined into a single adventure." It sounds like you've read Robin's Laws, and maybe put a bit too much stock in it, but the real trouble is "could be." They could ideally come together? Your design could easily contribute to making them come together. If you really want to get to a point where people care about your intellectual property, your game will need every competitive advantage it can get.

The amount of work your design must now do to avoid registering as the same old thing has gone up. But in the end, that's good; it means that instead of just cloning D&D with some tweaks, we end up doing real design, thinking about every element of our games and how they fit with every other element. So keep thinking carefully about what you want and whether you're headed there (because, truthfully, there's a lot more to life than being a good product - if you make something for your own group or just for the satisfaction of making something, that can be pleasure and honor enough).

[hix]

Thanks for clarifying this for me, Nicolas. I think I can also provide some examples of what Mike is talkinga about here:

The reason I ask about your goals is this: the bar has been raised lately on independent RPG publishers.... By the "bar" I mean what qualifies as the "same old thing."

It's fine to have a game where the GM lays out possible things to do and the players respond, but if your game does nothing to prevent a GM from laying out a bunch of stuff the players find boring, then it isn't meeting the bar anymore.

[Your game] has to do more than assume that everyone at the table is fully bought in; [your game] has to give GMs (and players!) tools for getting on the same page and getting the game running on at least a few, if not all, cylinders.

The GM has a choice of which system she's going to use; now that she has the option, she's going to choose [a system] that makes that job easier.

There are many game systems that are now available that: (a) provide clear methods for players to contribute to what the adventure will be about, and (b) clearly describe how to construct an adventure. Both these things are great for GMs and players that don't have much free time to prepare for a game, and want to get the most out of the time they're sitting down at the table.

Here are some examples (I've linked to the ones that are free and online) that seem appropriate to the type of game you're designing.

Methods for players to contribute to the adventure

Possibly the simplest method for this is to let the players choose where the next adventure will take place. You may have heard of Ben Robbins' Western Marches game? There's a series of articles about it, here.

When you couple this with a rich setting filled with lots of adventure hooks, you can guarantee a bit of player excitement and buy-in to the adventure location. Obviously there are lots of campaign worlds that illustrate that. My go-to world is The Shadow of Yesterday's 'Near' (link).

The Shadow of Yesterday is a game system that also illustrates another way to engage players: let them choose the missions they're interested in achieving in your adventure location, or let them choose how they'll be rewarded. Here's a link to the rules for The Shadow of Yesterday. Take a look at the idea of 'Keys'. And if you get a chance, have a read of a copy of a game called Nine Worlds (possibly my favourite RPG ever). It contains a similar concept to Keys (which it calls 'Muses') - each player has two or three Muses which clearly state what they are trying to do next. For example:

+ Beat Tyros to the centre of the Labyrinth of Night
+ Convince the King to restore my family's noble title
+ Assassinate the Lord of Assassins in his own home.

Now, why is this good? Well, it means as a GM you can spend your time creating an intriguing, explosive situation for the players to hook in to. The players can define what they want to do, and they can get rewards for doing it. As GM, you don't need to pre-plot a story or a series of encounters for them to go through (unless you want to), and you don't need to worry about them all having to stick together as a party all of the time (unless you want them to).


Clear guidance on constructing an adventure

I don't know if you've read either Mouse Guard or Dogs in the Vineyard. Both games have very clear, fun-to-read instructions for how to create adventures that tie into your players' characters. When Mike talks about 'the bar being raised', above, these are probably two of the games he's referring to. In a completely different way, you could check out Danger Patrol (a game that's currently being playtested) that has a completely different way of creating an adventure that tie into your players' characters. Danger Patrol is available here.


***

I'm sure that other people will be around to offer further advice. I hope the links I've given you tie in to your objectives for the game, which seem to be to provide an adventure rich location for your players to explore, using characters that may have a diverse number of motivations for being there.

[canormorum]

Dreaming again, aren't I?

Well, never say never, but as far as expectations go... you should really have a look at this.

The reason I ask about your goals is this: the bar has been raised lately on independent RPG publishers. (The floor has also been raised, fortunately; it's hard to print yourself into the red when Lulu.com is there, although you can still mess up by paying for lots of art or something.) By the "bar" I mean what qualifies as the "same old thing." It's fine to have a game where the GM lays out possible things to do and the players respond, but if your game does nothing to prevent a GM from laying out a bunch of stuff the players find boring, then it isn't meeting the bar anymore. (Doing something to prevent this case isn't the same as always preventing it, which would be impossible.) It has to do more than assume that everyone at the table is fully bought in; it has to give GMs (and players!) tools for getting on the same page and getting the game running on at least a few, if not all, cylinders. And merely describing a setting doesn't seem to work for people as such a tool.

You say, "If no one is having fun, if nothing is happening, it's up to the GM to make something happen and kick the story into high gear." The GM has a choice of which system she's going to use; now that she has the option, she's going to choose one that makes that job easier. What is your design work going to do for her? It had better be compelling, or the sales you get off of a con demo won't translate into play at anyone else's table.

You also cite a bunch of player types and say, "Ideally, these aspects could all be combined into a single adventure." It sounds like you've read Robin's Laws, and maybe put a bit too much stock in it, but the real trouble is "could be." They could ideally come together? Your design could easily contribute to making them come together. If you really want to get to a point where people care about your intellectual property, your game will need every competitive advantage it can get.

The amount of work your design must now do to avoid registering as the same old thing has gone up. But in the end, that's good; it means that instead of just cloning D&D with some tweaks, we end up doing real design, thinking about every element of our games and how they fit with every other element. So keep thinking carefully about what you want and whether you're headed there (because, truthfully, there's a lot more to life than being a good product - if you make something for your own group or just for the satisfaction of making something, that can be pleasure and honor enough).

The example of White Wolf is interesting because their basic intellectual property was co-opted by others (Underworld, Twilight, etc.).  There's not much they can do about it though, as seen when they tried to sue the makers of Underworld.  The reason is that vampires and werewolves are such a generic entity and so many stories, films, etc. have been made about them.  They are currently an MMO developer that sells some books and hosts LARPs.  Dungeons and Dragons as an IP is weak too, it owes more to Tolkien than any other derivative game owes it.  The fantasy genre itself is so generic that anyone could basically copy the D&D races, classes, creatures, etc without any fear of legal action.  Even the system is open source now.  From what I understand you can't really copyright a rule system anyways, only the specific text describing said rules.

With Elsewhere, I'm doing the writing, artwork, layout and web design/promotion myself.  It's an artistic exercise more than anything and a good addition to my portfolio.  Whether it sells 2 copies or 2000 I will not have really lost anything in the deal.  It's a productive use of my time that I enjoy and will result in something I can be proud of.  As an intellectual property I think it has some legs but I'm not under the delusion that I will get rich nor is that my goal.  Having spent much of my life in both the music and art world I understand well the fickle nature of teen trends and that the value of an artist is not measured by their bank account.  Nor is competing with other creators my agenda. 

I really don't think having the best or most innovative rule system is what sells the product. I think people choose to play games because they are attracted to the setting, the characters, the world itself.  To me, the rules and system are secondary.  These systems can be converted as well, you could play Elsewhere with any rules you like.  I do however wish to produce the best product that I can and will keep in mind these different approaches to design you mention.     

[canormorum]

Thanks for clarifying this for me, Nicolas. I think I can also provide some examples of what Mike is talkinga about here:

The reason I ask about your goals is this: the bar has been raised lately on independent RPG publishers.... By the "bar" I mean what qualifies as the "same old thing."

It's fine to have a game where the GM lays out possible things to do and the players respond, but if your game does nothing to prevent a GM from laying out a bunch of stuff the players find boring, then it isn't meeting the bar anymore.

[Your game] has to do more than assume that everyone at the table is fully bought in; [your game] has to give GMs (and players!) tools for getting on the same page and getting the game running on at least a few, if not all, cylinders.

The GM has a choice of which system she's going to use; now that she has the option, she's going to choose [a system] that makes that job easier.

There are many game systems that are now available that: (a) provide clear methods for players to contribute to what the adventure will be about, and (b) clearly describe how to construct an adventure. Both these things are great for GMs and players that don't have much free time to prepare for a game, and want to get the most out of the time they're sitting down at the table.

Here are some examples (I've linked to the ones that are free and online) that seem appropriate to the type of game you're designing.

Methods for players to contribute to the adventure

Possibly the simplest method for this is to let the players choose where the next adventure will take place. You may have heard of Ben Robbins' Western Marches game? There's a series of articles about it, here.

When you couple this with a rich setting filled with lots of adventure hooks, you can guarantee a bit of player excitement and buy-in to the adventure location. Obviously there are lots of campaign worlds that illustrate that. My go-to world is The Shadow of Yesterday's 'Near' (link).

The Shadow of Yesterday is a game system that also illustrates another way to engage players: let them choose the missions they're interested in achieving in your adventure location, or let them choose how they'll be rewarded. Here's a link to the rules for The Shadow of Yesterday. Take a look at the idea of 'Keys'. And if you get a chance, have a read of a copy of a game called Nine Worlds (possibly my favourite RPG ever). It contains a similar concept to Keys (which it calls 'Muses') - each player has two or three Muses which clearly state what they are trying to do next. For example:

+ Beat Tyros to the centre of the Labyrinth of Night
+ Convince the King to restore my family's noble title
+ Assassinate the Lord of Assassins in his own home.

Now, why is this good? Well, it means as a GM you can spend your time creating an intriguing, explosive situation for the players to hook in to. The players can define what they want to do, and they can get rewards for doing it. As GM, you don't need to pre-plot a story or a series of encounters for them to go through (unless you want to), and you don't need to worry about them all having to stick together as a party all of the time (unless you want them to).


Clear guidance on constructing an adventure

I don't know if you've read either Mouse Guard or Dogs in the Vineyard. Both games have very clear, fun-to-read instructions for how to create adventures that tie into your players' characters. When Mike talks about 'the bar being raised', above, these are probably two of the games he's referring to. In a completely different way, you could check out Danger Patrol (a game that's currently being playtested) that has a completely different way of creating an adventure that tie into your players' characters. Danger Patrol is available here.


***

I'm sure that other people will be around to offer further advice. I hope the links I've given you tie in to your objectives for the game, which seem to be to provide an adventure rich location for your players to explore, using characters that may have a diverse number of motivations for being there.

I see what your saying now, I wasn't aware of a lot of these indie games and was basing my system on the old standards.  Shows how far behind I've fallen.  Clearly some innovation has taken place.

I've been reading a lot of the ideas on Ars Ludi, very interesting.  Thanks for the link.