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275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4283 Members Latest Member: - otto Most online today: 70 - most online ever: 429 (November 03, 2007, 04:35:43 AM)
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Author Topic: [Nevercast] - Indepth Setting Discussion  (Read 1801 times)
Ar Kayon
Member

Posts: 190


« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2010, 07:10:08 AM »

On Survivability
- If you take a look at the history of warfare, you'll notice that at certain periods in the arms race, defensive technology surpasses offensive technology.  To name a few, there was the Roman phalanx with their enormous walls of shields, and then in the late medieval period there was plate armor. 
Take a look at modern warfare.  Two decades ago, armor consisted of a helmet and a flak jacket.  Assault rifles made swiss cheese out of them.  Then, there was a quarter inch thick steel plate that took a single round then broke.  Today, soldiers have vests where you can stick plates into pockets in order to get the level of protection they desire.  They can eat a few rounds in their torso and continue fighting like nothing happened.  And then there's that Dragon Skin armor that can supposedly absorb a grenade blast.
From this information, I extrapolated that not too far in the future, defensive technology will once again allow high gradients of survivability against small-arms fire to those supported by it.  So in Nevercast, yes there are bullet hoses and magnetic accelerator rifles, but there are also high-grade ceramic full-coverage plates with synthetic polymer/carbon nanotube weave underlays.  Even 50 caliber rounds can be stopped by quality post-modern armor.
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horomancer
Member

Posts: 54


« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2010, 04:02:15 PM »

You need swords just because some a-hole will want to fight with one. Also, though tech is common place, I'm sure there are some pockets of cultures (3rd world countries, street gangs, mercs that are a little 'off') that would use some sword of similar melee weapon. Better to have it all figured out and not use it then try and come up with something on the fly when GMing
How soon till we see a break down of all the core rules? I think you got a real winner of a system brewing.
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Ar Kayon
Member

Posts: 190


« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2010, 06:28:43 PM »

I've decided that traditionalist masters will have swords, but that these weapons are specially commissioned by religious orders for them; doubtful you'll be able to randomly find them out in the world.  Even African tribesmen have AK-47s. 

As far as a timeline for a beta is concerned, I can't make a judgment with any measure of accuracy.  I am prone to hacking away countless hours of work if I believe I can do it better. 
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horomancer
Member

Posts: 54


« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2010, 08:05:20 PM »

The never ending pursuit of perfection. Good luck!

I'm a bit confused about your point on swords. Are you saying the only people what would have swords are those that train extensively in the Martial Arts? Any other combatant will just use a fire arm of some sort because they are so common? I can understand your reservation about having the feel of the world you are building 'cheapened' by trying to have some one bring a sword to a gun fight and think that it's a good idea, but sometimes you just got to jump a guy with your machete and hope for the best.
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Ar Kayon
Member

Posts: 190


« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2010, 08:35:53 PM »

I don't really regard machetes in the same respect as swords, but I understand the point you're trying to make.  Naturally, non-martial hand-held weapons would be ubiquitous as well, including machetes, but not swords designed specifically for martial use. 
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horomancer
Member

Posts: 54


« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2010, 05:22:55 AM »

So how would the sword differ mechanically speaking?
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Ar Kayon
Member

Posts: 190


« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2010, 07:12:34 AM »

Very high penetrating power for thrusts in order to bypass armor (rigid outer layer; extremely keen tip; tapered edge).  Thus, a traditionalist master expects to fight high-powered opponents in close-quarters combat.  Against strong armors, a two-handed thrust may be utilized by gripping the blade.  The length may also be used as a "feeler" for avoiding the aim of a firearm in a melee and potentially slicing fingers and wrists. 

I've been having basic physics discussions with a friend of mine who is educated about physics and guns and body armors and stuff, so I'm *fairly* certain a sword with the right specifications could penetrate rigid armor with a strong thrust by an exponent who can use their body to generate a lot of force, but I'm not sure.  If I'm incorrect, then a master may just opt for a knife precisely aimed at exposed underlay and use the sword for lightly-armored opponents. 

I'm also hoping I can realistically design the sword to attract the energy of electric weapons and store it into a battery located inside the grip.
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horomancer
Member

Posts: 54


« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2010, 08:33:06 AM »

Having a sword penetrate fancy body armour meant to stop 50 cal machine gun rounds might be a stretch. Guess it comes to how superhuman are traditional masters are and what kind of technocheese you are willing to put in your system.
I see a future sword being more like an old school Rapier where the goal was penetrating the weaker armour around joints.
Maybe a long thin titanium alloy body with a depleted uranium tip honed to needle point fineness, with a ribbon of some other material along the titanium frame to act as a cutting edge. The tip could easily have small holes to allow the passage of compressed air if you wanted a WASP type weapon (http://www.waspknife.com/) or have some other metal that carries electricity well (how well does urainium carry a charge?) to act like a stun baton.
That could actually be a very effective tool against super armour soldiers, and would require no more technology than what we've had for for the past 50 years. Pin point a weak spot int he armour and disable the soldier inside.
Same could be done with a knife of course. I would imagine a nanofiber weave would act much the same as kevilar in that at acts more like a Net rather than a shield and very sharp things that don't deform their shape can penetrating them with less energy than squishy blunt things like bullets.
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horomancer
Member

Posts: 54


« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2010, 08:53:25 AM »

More thoughts on super armour melee.
Short baton covered in serrations that allow a user to snag and control enemies and their weapons. The pommel is super dense hard spike has described above. The Idea being that you can use the baton to close distance from the Medium to Cramped range, grapple to uncover a weakspot, than strike with the pommel like a fist load which shouldn't incur minuses in such close quarters.
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Ar Kayon
Member

Posts: 190


« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2010, 09:34:31 AM »

One idea was to give masters an internal arts technique that allows them to use concentration to make a "chi" strike.  Old school tai chi striking techniques were designed to actually transfer force through armor, but now that there's high-quality soft armor available, I doubt I can sell that either.

So far, it seems like the most sensible course of action is to encourage bladed strikes through the weave areas of the armor, especially the armpits where you can puncture a lung.  Since masters typically have high-level grappling techniques, it shouldn't be too hard for them to neutralize a firearm while they attempt to strike a weak point.

Idea for traditionalist master's equipment: knife, sword of beauty, sidearm + 2 clips (helps to close distance if necessary), torso body armor (weave+plating).  A grandmaster of a technology cult may have entire ornate suit of armor.
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horomancer
Member

Posts: 54


« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2010, 10:26:00 AM »

You could still push the Chi Strike angle. Chi is one of those things that is tantamount to magic on whether it exists or not. No one would really have grounds to say what it can or can't do, but it may be easier to suspend belief when someone tries to use it rather than going with the nitty gritty approach of grappling and striking at armpits.
I think it really is all about you wanting the feel of it in your game or not. And i would encourage you to write the rules on how to implement it anyways just so someone that wanted to use your system but have their own setting could have it at hand.
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Ar Kayon
Member

Posts: 190


« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2010, 01:05:33 PM »

The rules for applying internal force are simple: 1 concentration = +1 base effect.

On a side note, I was thinking that for every point of effect, the PSI of force-based damage will increase by 100.  This may help me to determine how many points of effect resistance armor should really have and how many points of strength a weapon's attack should really have.  My physics buddy was telling me to convert it to newtons for some reason - especially in consideration to travelling bullets - but I'm not sure why yet.

I know that a boxer's punch typically ranges from 800-1000 PSI and kicks and knees from well-trained martial artists can reach up to 1500, so my attribute system (human attributes from 1-10) is already well-suited for the conversion, especially if you consider spinning back kicks and knee strikes as power attacks.

I wonder if I can find PSI measurements for shaolin monks...or Bruce Lee.
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horomancer
Member

Posts: 54


« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2010, 02:26:06 PM »

I can kinda understand Newtons since it goes into straight force rather than relative pressure. The PSI of a punch would greatly increase if it was say a spear hand, thought the force would remain exactly the same. I prefer thinking in Kinetic energy and Momentum since these fit in nicely with projectile collisions, but these values become hard to logic though with complex motions like punching.
My physics is rusty, but 1000 PSI for a punch would equal about 4448 N/sqinch or 6896000 N/m^2


this might be of use to you http://www.3news.co.nz/TVShows/Nightline/Kiwi-stuntman-the-most-dangerous-man-on-the-planet/tabid/728/articleID/107251/cat/17/Default.aspx

I think that must be a mistake, but who am I to judge? Here is where the value of Force would prove a better comparison since the force between his punches and mike tyson or bruce lee may be very small, but if he has tiny lady hands his PSI would be significantly greater.
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Ar Kayon
Member

Posts: 190


« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2010, 06:37:13 PM »

I don't know if my math is crap, but it appears as if a hard punch exerts more force than an actual bullet.  I wish I had a vest handy so I could punch someone in it...for the sake of science of course.  Anyway, if this is true, perhaps a master who can generate very high levels of force can inflict concussive damage upon a well-armored target if he follows through.  And if he's using his bodyweight to enhance a sword thrust, then that too may penetrate whereas a high-caliber bullet may not.

I'm going to keep researching, but I appreciate the feedback.  I see where this is going, though, so maybe newtons does make more sense than psi.
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Mobius
Member

Posts: 46


« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2010, 07:34:19 PM »

I don't know if my math is crap, but it appears as if a hard punch exerts more force than an actual bullet.  I wish I had a vest handy so I could punch someone in it...for the sake of science of course.  Anyway, if this is true, perhaps a master who can generate very high levels of force can inflict concussive damage upon a well-armored target if he follows through.  And if he's using his bodyweight to enhance a sword thrust, then that too may penetrate whereas a high-caliber bullet may not.

I'm going to keep researching, but I appreciate the feedback.  I see where this is going, though, so maybe newtons does make more sense than psi.

The person firing the bullet feels all the force it exerts (equal and opposite reaction) so I suspect your math is not crap.
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Mobius a.k.a Charles
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