A Question about Armor

[Irmo]

Yes, and we decided that armor is bought in sets (gambeson + plate or chain) because it's suicidal to use one without the other.

That might be true for noblemen with money, but what about the general levy?

[Lyrax]

I'd say that the general levy has several options:

A) Use no armor.

B) Use cheap armor.

C) Use the lord of the land's armor.

Soldiers can take option C) because the lord of the land buys their armor, raiders and such often take option B) and most peasants prefer option A) because they wish to stay away from getting killed.

[contracycle]

The levy is unlikely to have armour; hell they may not even have weapons so much as sticks and assorted farming implements.  A wealthy peasant may be expected to keep, by law, a gambeson or leather jerkin which would be worn probably with a skull cap or pot helm.  If you are thinking of actual men-at-arms, they will likely be armed at their lords expense.  Mercenaries pay for their own.

[Lance D. Allen]

A wealthy peasant may be expected to keep, by law, a gambeson or leather jerkin which would be worn probably with a skull cap or pot helm.

Something probably passed down from father to son, as well. In addition, they very likely would keep a bill or a pike, or some sort of pole weapon, in case they are ever called to war. A peasant with a sword, on the other hand, probably has a very interesting story indeed....[/quote]

[Irmo]

The levy is unlikely to have armour; hell they may not even have weapons so much as sticks and assorted farming implements.  A wealthy peasant may be expected to keep, by law, a gambeson or leather jerkin which would be worn probably with a skull cap or pot helm.

And with that we would again be at the issue of gambesons worn as the only armor ;)

If you are thinking of actual men-at-arms, they will likely be armed at their lords expense.  Mercenaries pay for their own.

Provided their lord can meet the expenses.


By the way, Osprey's "Knights of Christ" depicts a Turkopole of the Hospitallers in quilted armor, a so-called aketon (from Al Qutun), noted for its light weight yet strength. A foot soldier in the same plate is also depicted with quilted armor for the torso, though he wears mail leggings. He is said to be based on contemporary writings with details taken out of the Maciejowski bible. For reference, this is plate A in Osprey's "The Knights of Christ" in the Men-at-Arms series and follows page 24. The book is written by Terence Wise, and illustrated by Richard Scollins. ISBN 0-85045-604-5

[Durgil]

Not to be totally contrary, but high-quality armor can get up to 7 or 8 in armor value.  Any more though, and I agree that magic would need to be involved.

I've thought a lot about how to do this high quality, low quality, and magical armour.  I have decided, with at least my armour rules, that only the Integrity Value should be raised or lowered.  Think of it this way, in my rules a plate of metal absorbs/deflects a certain amount of damage.  That doesn't change whether it's made out of bronze, wrought iron, low steel, or high steel; what changes with each one of these types of plates is how much force it can withstand before it is damaged.  The numbers I used for the IV's of all the metal armours are based on the armour and the weapon striking the armour being made out of wrought iron.  There were high quality suits of armour in the 16th and 17th Centuries that were made of steel that was 5 or 6 times harder (and therefore roughly the same times stronger) than wrought iron.  Therefore in that case, I would multiple that armour's IV by 5 or 6 times, which essentially means that unless you are also using a superiorly made steel weapon, your only chance to defeat the wearer would be to beat him to death because you will not break through that armour.  Let's not forget Frodo's mail shirt made of mithril.  In the books, the spear thrown by that orc didn't pierce that armour, but it didn't protect him from the force of the blow.  It knocked the wind out of him plus it knocked him off of his feet.

[Mike Holmes]

In the books, the spear thrown by that orc didn't pierce that armour, but it didn't protect him from the force of the blow.  It knocked the wind out of him plus it knocked him off of his feet.

What this argues for is a blunt trauma rule. For every three points of damage stopped by armor, you take one point of damage converted to blunt damage. Or something like that. Thus Frodo takes a nine pointer in the chest, which is converted from 9 points of Pointy damage to 3 points of blunt damage. Enough to save his life, but not enough to prevent him getting knocked out.

Mike

[Lance D. Allen]

Actually, that mythril shirt must have protected him from a lot of the blunt trauma.. It was a cave troll, if I remember, that got him with a thrust (not a throw). It would have crushed his ribcage even if it didn't pierce... but it's fantasy, and I think Mike's suggestion is perfectly suitable, and one I would probably use.

So let's check the math here... I'm wearing chain (AV 4) and I have a TO of 4. I get hit by a barbarian with ST 4 wielding a greatsword... His cumulative successes are, (arbitrarily) 2, so that makes the total damage of the attack a 9 before taking out TO, for a 5, then the armor takes away another 4, leaving a cut of 1 to, say zone III, location: ribcage. Throwing in Mike's suggestion, that also throws in a bashing wound of 1 to the ribcage.. Let's break down the effects...

Cut Zone III location ribcage:
BL: 0
Shock: 2
Pain: 4-WP

Bludgeon Zone III location ribcage:
BL: 0
Shock: 5-WP
Pain: 4-WP

(assume WP = 4) This leaves a total:

BL: 0
Shock: 3
Pain: 0

Hm... Better, but still not good enough... I think it worth considering that flexible armors (certain types of leather, chain, scale, brigs, etc.) transfer to bludgeoning at a rate of 2:1 from cutting, but 3:1 from piercing, which would have knocked the Bludgeon effects to a level 2 wound, for the following effects:
BL: 0
S: 4
P: 5-WP

for a cumulative:
BL: 0
S: 6
P: 1

Which seems suitable for taking a greatsword to the ribs, even through chain. What do you guys think?

Also, if we're thinking through this, I think it worthwhile to say that blunt damage uses the same transfer rates against flexible armors, to illustrate their relative ineffectiveness to blunt trauma.

::shrugs:: BUT we might just be overthinking things.

[Jaif]

In the books, it was a big orc that ran by everyone to skewer Frodo. In the movies, it was a cave troll who tossed everyone around like a rag doll and made funny noises.

I doubt this changes much, but we need to keep the important things straight. :-)

-Jeff

[Durgil]

Actually, that mythril shirt must have protected him from a lot of the blunt trauma.. It was a cave troll, if I remember, that got him with a thrust (not a throw).

Jeff is right, that was the way it happened in the Movie.  It was merely an orc that threw a spear in the book.  I not going to try to rationalize theatrics ; )

I think it worth considering that flexible armors (certain types of leather, chain, scale, brigs, etc.) transfer to bludgeoning at a rate of 2:1 from cutting, but 3:1 from piercing, which would have knocked the Bludgeon effects to a level 2 wound, for the following effects:
BL: 0
S: 4
P: 5-WP

for a cumulative:
BL: 0
S: 6
P: 1

Which seems suitable for taking a greatsword to the ribs, even through chain. What do you guys think?

Also, if we're thinking through this, I think it worthwhile to say that blunt damage uses the same transfer rates against flexible armors, to illustrate their relative ineffectiveness to blunt trauma.

This maybe an easier way of handling this situation that I am interested in investigating a little more.  I still think the way I proposed is a bit more realistic and can handle the situation of high quality and magic armour better.  There also needs to be a wider variation of types at least, and I think how multiple layers of protection are calculated.

As far as the Cave Troll scene, magic would be the only way I could see of increasing the blunt force trauma protection of a particular type of armour (it would be exerting somekind of invisible force in the opposite direction to slow the speed of the weapon - like they hade in the movie "Dune."  

When does jake get back anyway?

[Jaif]

It was merely an orc that threw a spear in the book. I not going to try to rationalize theatrics ; )

<places hands on the holy book>

The spear was thrust, not thrown.  The orc weasled its way past everyone to stab Frodo.  Sam busted the spear, Aragorn busted the orc. :-)  Then they ran out of the room, and after letting Aragorn carry him for awhile, Frodo finally admitted he was alive and well.

-Jeff

[Durgil]

Please forgive me.  My comment was a slight against the Movie, not the Book!  I like the book version much better.  Mithril or not, IMC, if something like that scene in the movie would have happened, Frodo would have had a spear sheathed in mithril mail through him. : )  A humanoid creature that's 12 to 14 feet tall, IMO, has to be so strong just to get around, that if he was to get a hold of you, he could literally tear you limb from limb as easily as you and I can rip apart pieces of boiled chicken.

Well, maybe not that easily, but you get the picture.

[Mike Holmes]

A humanoid creature that's 12 to 14 feet tall, IMO, has to be so strong just to get around, that if he was to get a hold of you, he could literally tear you limb from limb as easily as you and I can rip apart pieces of boiled chicken.

Well, maybe not that easily, but you get the picture.

He would be about 4 times as strong as a six foot man of similar proportions. Which I don't think you caould find, given the bulk of the Troll, so, let's call him five times as strong, roughly. That is, if I can lift 200 lbs above my head, the Troll would be able to lift half a ton with as much realtive effort.

Stats-wise, if we are looking at ST as a proportional stat (which I think it is from the rules; you do multiply to get lifiting, right?), that puts the Troll at ST 22 or so (4.4*5). Can you say ouch! I knew you could. Call the spear ST+1 or so, and you get 24 points from a grazing blow. I think the Troll's was more square, so let's call it 25, nice and round. That means that the Mithril reduced the damage by 22 or so at least. Let's call it AV 25 just for kicks, and not worry about Frodo's TO. So, that means that the damage is converted at 3:1, or 8 points.

Yep, Frodo shoulda been skewered. Mithril shirt or no. Unless you want to increase the ratio to, say 6:1 or so, he's a goner.

Kinda tongue in cheek, but it illustrates a point. Forgive the movie, it's just a movie after all. But you can create realistic rules that cover these sorts of things.

Lance, I'd keep chain at 3:1 and make plate more effective, rather than the opposite. I was even thinking of bumping up chain. But I was also thinking that it would only apply to damage stopped (as opposed to your example), which would lead to one never taking more than one point of BFT.

Lots of potential problems. My suggestion was just to get people thinking, not an actual proposition for a rule. There are other things that this post brings up. Perhaps some of them should go in new threads. In fact when Jake gets back, he may want to split this one up a bit.

Mike

[Lyrax]

It wasn't a 12 to 14 foot Troll.

It was a 6 to 8 foot orc.

Still scary, but not "throwing people around like rag dolls" scary.

Besides mithril is special, and should have its own rules.  I think the current rules are more than good enough for mundane armor.  Remember that mass weapons can cause LOTS of shock, even when they don't deal an armor-piercing wound.

[Durgil]

We already aggread that it was an orc, now we're talking about a 12' to 14' tall Cave Troll, and as far as special rules for mithril, why?  Just because it's magically created and the hardest metal known to the free peoples of Middle-earth and Sauron, doesn't change the fact that Frodo's shirt was still mail and should act as such.  Please don't start pulling RoleMaster on us by giving magical chain "plate" like qualities.