A Question about Armor

[contracycle]

remember that some of the force is used pushing the target over, it converts to kinetic energy.  I don;t remember either seen well enough, but if frodo falls or flies you may well not need to account for every erg.  in fact, seeing as frodo's mass is going to be less than either troll or orc, you'd expect him to move.  Lastly, the mithril is not going to stretch, so when its trying to pentrate the body on the end of the spear tip, it is applying force across the whole inside circumference of the armour, which is quite large.  So there :)

[Thirsty Viking]

first frodo and the spear,  

Tolkien wrote
But even as they retreated ... A huge orc-chieften  ... Leaped into the hamber; behind him his followers clustered in the dorway. ..... With a Thrust of his huge hide shield he turned boromir's sword and bore him backwards, throwing him to the ground.  Diving under Aragorn's blow with the speed of a striking snake he charged into the company and thrust his spear straight at Frodo.  The blow caught him on the right side, and frodo was hurled against the wall and pinned.

The Orc Chieftan, in a heroic move, did a simultaneous attack with Boromir a shield bash  won the initiative and scored a knockdown, (impressive) then on the second round as boromir gets to his feet does a duck and weave past aragorn and charges into the departing companions to make room for more orcs to follow him into the room (if he stands alone in the doorway he'll just join the 13 dead orcs on the floor).   He then attacks FRODO who has turned to go and achieves surprise,  at this point we can assume he picks frodo because he only has a couple CP
left for an attack.  rolling his last dice  he scores a hit, with his strength a strong one.  Frodo is a small guy, low strength,  low knockdown score, he got knocked down near a wall,   hence pinned against it.  One might even argue for knocked out,  and awakened by Aragorns' first aid skill,  though the book wasn't written  that way..  
in the rules...  
if we assume the properties of mithril chain are to convert cutting and piercing attacks into blunt dammage (impenatrable) and that it was just normal chain otherwise...   then giving frodo a toughness of 6 and 4 armor value a DL 13 piercing attack becomes  Bludgeoning 3  from the book

TROS  Bludgeoning  Dammage zone III ribcage
BL: 1  shock: 8  Pain: 6-WP
Winded, maybe with a broken rib.
May lose consciousness (+2)

as opposed to no armor

TROS  Puncturing  Dammage zone V chest
Pierced heart. Death is nearly instantaneous

or normal chain
quote]TROS  Puncturing  Dammage zone III chest
BL:8  Shock:7  Pain 8-WP
Deep but survivable; Wound hits deep but misses major organs.
[/quote]

Being winded  ...  senchal rules frodo can't speak,  and the shock taking all frodo's combat pool  Seneschal rules him knocked down.  Aragorn in a hurry picks him up like a football and disreguards minor movements by frodo as death spasms untill frodo speaks.  WHY?  Frodo has THE RING,  Aragorn didn't have time to get the ring,  he grabs frodo and flees.  Later Frodo suffers some pain,  perhaps willpower 5 left him with one die less in his combat pool, though I'd rate his WP as more than that probably a 7 and his high stat.

No mythical plate like qualities needed,  though people could argue a higher armor value, i'd  disagree. Being  light, quiet (no stealth mods), and easily hidden (noone realized he had it on before this, not even life long friends, or a very perceptive ranger who was Carrying him),  and converting all attacks to blunt damage with an AV of 4 without a gambeson  is quite enough in my opinion.

Before I go much further, let me state clearly I LIKE the PLAYABILITY of the rules like they are.   and though I am suggesting how things would be handled for realism...  they are TOO MUCH TROUBLE I feel  for the MINIMUM they add.  Role master had seperate charts for each individual weapon for each type of armor to accomodate the complexities.

The problems with this issue is that there are differing amor values for each type of attack form.  Silk was bashed as an armor type....  but silk had uses in armor.  Silk was an early balistic cloth,  capeable of reducing the penetration level of arrows, and making for easier extraction.  The silk wrapping the head and preventing full closure of the flesh around the
shaft..   lets say DR 2p however it had no protective value to speak of against b or c Just like today, you can thrust a knife through a bullet proof
vest. (i've heard fairly easily)  But if you shot the cop wearing  it with  an average bullet it converts the piercing damage into a less serious  blunt damage,  causing shock, possible knockout/knockdown, but saving his life.

Chain is real good against cutting attacks,  but it transmits the force into a blunt attack at a lower value (dispersion) a gambeson not being real effective against any dammage (if it has DR 1 consider that the average human toughness is 4  the value of chain) it does enhance the dispersion effect of chain.  When I run, any player in chain without a gambeson is DR3 Plate  disperses the force even better hence its value of 6.  But
plate doesn't stop the spike of a warhammer very well.  Notice the rules....  what Plate does do is convert a lot of cutting and piercing damage to widly dispersed blunt damage...  the reason mass weapons are so effective is that they have more of thier wieght out on the head... this imballance is a force multiplier trying to over ballance the ability of armor to disperse.  compared to a balanced sword...  which is more manuverable and can can parry better.

This same fact applies to football helmets as well,  the reason they work so well is the outer layer of plasic plate engages more of the inner layer in absorbing the force.  niether the outer Plate of plastic, nor the inner "gambeson" of foam/air tubes  are nearly as effective without the other.

When I see prices listed in a book,  I assume that that armor is first rate armor suitable for Landed Nobility.  It costs 30 gold, if better armor was available at 150 gold with any frequency,  they'd own it,  and it would be listed in the book,  Armor is life, and the wealth will pay well for it.  Barring magic I'd never expect to see a suit at more than 1 level above it.  If  those exist there would only be 1 or 2 master craftsman in the world who could make them without picking up big penalties.  It would take a long time, and have to be custom made with several fittings...

Are we talking then about TOURNAMENT grade JOUSTING armor? likely to cover only the areas likely to be hit in a joust and too heavey to use afoot?   Are we talking Parade armor that is ineffective in combat (large - CP), but keeps the lord safer from assassins?

These sorts of non generic fighting specialty armors,  maybe. Just remember to include and exploit the weak points.

As long as i'm here,  I'll approach the issue of shields and durability.

If you want rules for sword hacking pieces out of your opponents shield then we need rules for that same sword cutting into the wood and getting STUCK.  It is my contention  that for purposes of gameplay, unless specifically stated otherwise by the players, both fighters will fight in ways to minimize this, and that shields are reinforced enough to withstand blows along thier face.  If the shield has a metal band reinfocing the rim...  wouldn't this also lead to degrading the blade that cut into it.   do we need rules for loss of CP, or penalties to ATN as edges nic and dull?   I don't think so.

NOTE: I Jake told me that he didn't extract the items from other game systems.  That he had NO experience with them.  These are related from my 23 years of RPG experience only.
This system has brought in some of the best parts of the rolemaster damage tables and distiled them to where it can be run effectively with out a computer.  It has also brought in NICE spellcasters with limitations that make sence logically (blue wizard, your life force is running out).  It has also brought together some of the attack and defend elements from GURP combat that i liked so much,  and presented them in a better fashion.  

You want to layer chain leather and gambeson... ok +1 for AV 5, but don't be surprised if you have more penalties than FULL PLATE. Plate breast plate on Full chain (includes gambeson)...  ok AV 7  but live with  the negatives it brings..
Movement Rate ... CP...  Stealth... Perception.
If you think the penalties are too harsh compared to full chain, or just full plate...  stick to the typical armor combinations,  because the ancients agreed with you....  thats how the armor became typical.

Your decisions may vary

[Durgil]

I'm sorry it has taken me so long to reply to you commit, Thirsty Viking.  I've been mulling over your last post, which I must say is quite good.  I'd still argue over the quilt gambeson "not being real effective against any damage."

That is just not supported in any of the literature that I have.  Also, when I talk about different layers of armour, I'm not trying to account for a person who is wearing the mail without the gambeson, it's the circumstance of wearing the mail with something other than quilt such as over leather or a heavy cloth that I’m trying to account for.  Those should be adequate to protect the wearer from chaffing, but shouldn't provide as good of protection than wearing the mail over quilt.  The quilt on its own is a decent form of protection, if that’s all you've got money or expertise to come up with, and I have also seen examples of it having metal rings sown on to it to or studded to help augment its protection from edged weapons.

I guess it just comes down to personal tastes.  I really love the combat of The Riddle of Steel, I just want to see more detail when it comes to armour and its uses.

[Thirsty Viking]

I'm sorry it has taken me so long to reply to you commit, Thirsty Viking.  I've been mulling over your last post, which I must say is quite good.  I'd still argue over the quilt gambeson "not being real effective against any damage."

If you read my post closely,  i gave it an AV of 1 if used by itself.  That isn't real effective compared to say  chain mail (with gambeson
at 4,  3 without  IMO) or plate mail, but it is better than not having it...  what AV are you aguing for?

That is just not supported in any of the literature that I have.  Also, when I talk about different layers of armour, I'm not trying to account for a person who is wearing the mail without the gambeson, it's the circumstance of wearing the mail with something other than quilt such as over leather or a heavy cloth that I'm trying to account for.  

To be consistent, and agreeing with you that gambeson is worth SOME armor by itself  (just talking about unimproved quilted here)
then wearing chain mail over gambeson is a layered armor and should be acknowledged as such.

Those should be adequate to protect the wearer from chaffing, but shouldn't provide as good of protection than wearing the mail over quilt.  The quilt on its own is a decent form of protection, if that's all you've got money or expertise to come up with, and I have also seen examples of it having metal rings sown on to it to or studded to help augment its protection from edged weapons.

Now your talking about improved quilted cloth  ....   if it is totally
covered with linked metal rings  they call it chain mail.  :-)

I guess it just comes down to personal tastes.  I really love the combat of The Riddle of Steel, I just want to see more detail when it comes to armour and its uses.

Well  though i didn't lay out a table,  what could be implied from my post is roughly  as follows

Code Select Expand


Assuming Full Suits

STD  are the armors as written in the book...  un announced asuption is they are the best balanced armors (most effiecent available) and hence became standard.... The following ia a game table based on theory not knowledge,  and a 1st draft at that....

     Armor Type           Armor Value        CP mod         MV mod      STLTH mod
Padded Armor                    1                -1                           -1
Leather Armor        (std)      2
improved Padded                 2                                             -2
Greatly improved padded         3                -2              -1           -1
Unpaded Chain                   3                -1              -1           -3
Improved Leather                3                -1              -1           -1
Chain over padded (std)         4                -2              -1           -2
Chain over Leather              5                -3              -2           -3
Plate over padding (std)        6                -3              -2           -4
Plate and leather               6                -3              -2           -5
Plate and Chain                 7                -4              -4           -5

Remember the FIT of armor is important....  if you have PLATE  that fits and you find chain,  the plate will not fit while wearing the chain.  armor that doesn't fit propperly has additional negatives, and possible less AV



[Durgil]

I've been playing around with some house rules of my own on this matter.  You can check them out here.

And by the way, that is an excellant post on the "Ambidexterity Post."  I've been poping back in all afternoon waiting for Jake's response.