Toughness

[Spartan]

It wouldn't be completely unreasonable in lieu of caps which can be restrictive to simply subtract 1/2 Toughness from damage instead of full Toughness.

I would then be tempted to up the armor values by 2 on all pieces of armor to compensate so a Leather Wearing average guy still reduces damage by 6.  It would just be 2+4 instead of 4+2.

I think this is workable.  I might only up the armour by one, though., and I'm not sure why... just a gut feeling I have.  If I get a chance to try it out, I'll let you all know.  You could also use the average of toughness and strength or toughness and endurance as a substitute, too.  Of course, having only half toughness apply means that people will take that into account in chargen... if you round down then a 7 toughness functions the same as a 6 toughness, leaving another stat point to put somewhere else... which I suppose is exactly what we're after, yes? ;)

-Mark

[Ace]

While I agree that the toughness rules are a little weird in places I don't think I would change them for the simple reason TROS combat is deadly enough as it is

[Jake Norwood]

uh, can we say, uh, dead horse here?

TO 6 is the absolute max for a very "mortal" character.

TO 7-8 is for "heroic" types, and even then only at the expense of all else.

TO 9-10 is out of the question unless you're running high fantasy.

Horses have a low TO because they are incredibly frail. I lived on a ranch for 6 years, and a horse can kill itself on a wire fence. I've seen it. Big one, too.

Hef and the like have a high TO because of natural armors and the like.

Instead of whining about TO is too high and alternately "there aren't enough points for attributes" limit TO to 4 or 5 and use the leftover points elsewhere.

Jake,
who recently noticed that hot orange gatorade tastes just like orange spice tea

[svenlein]

Here's my experience with high toughness characters (TO 8).  Last night, we all built characters and sparred with them.  One guy created a massively tough, and massively strong character.  Not only that he was very fast.  But, the character only used his hands.  We'll call him Andre.

Now, we have him fighting a sword and shield user in leather.  We'll call him Bob.

-Joshua

If a guy with a sword parries a punch can he do damage?

[Jake Norwood]

Here's my experience with high toughness characters (TO 8).  Last night, we all built characters and sparred with them.  One guy created a massively tough, and massively strong character.  Not only that he was very fast.  But, the character only used his hands.  We'll call him Andre.

Now, we have him fighting a sword and shield user in leather.  We'll call him Bob.

-Joshua

If a guy with a sword parries a punch can he do damage?

This is a good question. It is certainly possible to deflect (we'll say "parry") many kinds of blows with a bare hand, but hard to do and very risky for some of them. I would say that there is a great possibility for taking damage to the arm on even a "successful" parry. How to do that mechanically, though...?

Jake

[Todd Bogenrief]

Here's my experience with high toughness characters (TO 8).  Last night, we all built characters and sparred with them.  One guy created a massively tough, and massively strong character.  Not only that he was very fast.  But, the character only used his hands.  We'll call him Andre.

Now, we have him fighting a sword and shield user in leather.  We'll call him Bob.

-Joshua

If a guy with a sword parries a punch can he do damage?

This is a good question. It is certainly possible to deflect (we'll say "parry") many kinds of blows with a bare hand, but hard to do and very risky for some of them. I would say that there is a great possibility for taking damage to the arm on even a "successful" parry. How to do that mechanically, though...?

Jake

Maybe compare the number of parry successes versus the attack?  Maybe a minimum of 2 extra successes(more?) is required to be able to effectively barehanded block a weapon.  With just one success over you have parried the weapon away but also not avoided taking the weapons damage to your arm.  Could be quite painful if you are trying to block a pole-axe by throwing an arm out in front of it, but it might be worth the risk to stop that axe from hitting you in the head.


Just a thought.

[Lance D. Allen]

It is certainly possible to deflect (we'll say "parry") many kinds of blows with a bare hand, but hard to do and very risky for some of them. I would say that there is a great possibility for taking damage to the arm on even a "successful" parry. How to do that mechanically, though...?

I'd say that if you successfully parry a cut with your hand, that you apply damage from the weapon + the attacker's successes, minus your cumulative successes from the defense. Like so:

Tiberius swings on Julianos with his shortsword. Julianos is currently unarmed because he's a yutz, but he attempts to block with his hand to keep from getting his head severed. Tiberius rolls 4 successes, and Julianos rolls 5, which makes a successful parry. However, Julianos blocked a bladed weapon with his hand... So we take the damage of the weapon (ST, in this case, 5) and add 4 successes, for a total of 9 damage. Now subtract Julianos TO (a 6, if I remember correctly) and his 1 cumulative success (5-4=1) which leaves a remaining damage level of two, to the hand.

If it is blocking a thrust from a bladed weapon, use only the damage of the weapon  as knocking aside a thrusting blade is much easier than a cut. Like so:

Tiberius is now attacking the newly rejuvenated Julianos with a thrust from his short sword. Again Tiberius rolls 4 successes, and Julianos, lucky bastard that he is, rolls 5 again. Julianos has successfully parried the thrust with his bare hand, but is at risk of getting a nasty cut. The damage of the weapon is again ST, so we take the total damage (5) and minus TO+ the cumulative successes, once again 1. Julianos has parried the blade without injuring his hand.

Add in an arming glove, and you can add the armor rating (3) to your damage resistance, meaning that blocking a cut from most things less than a greatsword or such will be fairly effective.

This is assuming that one is not actually attempting to *catch* a cut, but more to deflect it aside. Catching a cut, I would say that you don't even get to add any successes, because you're stupid.

[Lance D. Allen]

Oh, yes.. One last thing on the definition of Toughness that I meant to post before, but kept getting distracted from. I think that Toughness isn't only how physically capable you are of taking a hit and not being injured, but is also a measure of how well trained you are at reducing the effect of a hit, by rolling with it, or turning your body in such a way that it is not a direct hit, or what have you. As people have said, there is no way that a human hand has a higher TO than a brick, yet as I've pointed out, people can and do shatter them with their bare hands without taking an injury. So, let's see here...

TO 10: 4 points of "average, and;
3 points of exceptional Toughness, and;
2 points of knowing how to minimize the effects of a hit, and;
1 point of "Metaphysical Protection", just 'cause.

Admittedly, very few people are going to get there... but it is humanly possible in TRoS, as well as mostly possible in the real world. The fact that it takes extreme dedication is reflected by the extreme SA costs required. Remember, to get to 10, that's 25 points. That's all 5 SAs at maximum level... gone in an instant. I think a TO of 10 isn't asking too much for that.

[Spartan]

Tiberius swings on Julianos with his shortsword. Julianos is currently unarmed because he's a yutz, but he attempts to block with his hand to keep from getting his head severed.

True.  However, wouldn't it be more prudent to parry the arm of the attacker rather than the blade?  How would we take that into account?  I guess that's more of a grapple, but I think it's a viable option.  I know this has nothing to do with Toughness per se, but anyway, I thought it was worth bringing up.

-Mark

[Jake Norwood]

Tiberius swings on Julianos with his shortsword. Julianos is currently unarmed because he's a yutz, but he attempts to block with his hand to keep from getting his head severed.

True.  However, wouldn't it be more prudent to parry the arm of the attacker rather than the blade?  How would we take that into account?  I guess that's more of a grapple, but I think it's a viable option.  I know this has nothing to do with Toughness per se, but anyway, I thought it was worth bringing up.

-Mark

IRL, if you're gonna do this sort of thing, that's exactly what you need to do. I would impose range penalties, though, in that case, as you need to close on the longer weapon.

Jake

[Lance D. Allen]

Wouldn't that simply be covered by a defensive grapple, then? And definitely, you would need to close range, so you would have the range penalties from whatever the weapon is to hand. If that happens to be a greatsword, you're best off getting the hell out of the way, rather than trying to parry or grapple.

[Jake Norwood]

Wouldn't that simply be covered by a defensive grapple, then? And definitely, you would need to close range, so you would have the range penalties from whatever the weapon is to hand. If that happens to be a greatsword, you're best off getting the hell out of the way, rather than trying to parry or grapple.

Yup, I think it would.

Jake

[Lyrax]

Oh, yes.. One last thing on the definition of Toughness that I meant to post before, but kept getting distracted from. I think that Toughness isn't only how physically capable you are of taking a hit and not being injured, but is also a measure of how well trained you are at reducing the effect of a hit, by rolling with it, or turning your body in such a way that it is not a direct hit, or what have you. As people have said, there is no way that a human hand has a higher TO than a brick, yet as I've pointed out, people can and do shatter them with their bare hands without taking an injury. So, let's see here...

TO 10: 4 points of "average, and;
3 points of exceptional Toughness, and;
2 points of knowing how to minimize the effects of a hit, and;
1 point of "Metaphysical Protection", just 'cause.

Admittedly, very few people are going to get there... but it is humanly possible in TRoS, as well as mostly possible in the real world. The fact that it takes extreme dedication is reflected by the extreme SA costs required. Remember, to get to 10, that's 25 points. That's all 5 SAs at maximum level... gone in an instant. I think a TO of 10 isn't asking too much for that.

Everyone just kinda blew over this post, but I think we should take another look at it.

::waits a few seconds for you to look at it::

okay, what do you think?

Remember, that for TO of 10, it isn't only 25 points required, but also at least 22 (if you start with a TO of 8), which is a total of 47 points.  My character hasn't even earned that many SA points, and he's already been through many adventures.  And, if you start with a 7, then you have to add 19 points, making a total of 66 points necessary.  That's as many insight points as one needs to get a bonus "A" priority!  Think about that, too.  This is, as much "munchkin-protection" as any adventure will ever need for any reason.

Also, this whole thread has been about "What if someone gets a really high toughness attribute?"  What we haven't thought about is what is necessary to get that much toughness.  Now, some people have pointed out that bears are much bigger than humans, so should have much more toughness.  However, I present to you that this isn't the case.  Bears are bigger, so it takes a stronger hit to fell one, but also, they are bigger, so they are easier to hit.  When you are fighting a tough human, many of the weapon successes are simply "location successes," or placing your weapon somewhere that it will do harm.  Tougher people are harder to hit in vital areas than are frail, weak or battle-untrained people.  Going back to bears, when one is fighting an animal so large, the successes seem to be more "strength successes," because bears, while being hard to damage, are also easy to hit.

So, what does Andre's 8-toughness represent?  It represents a small, muscular neck, a muscular abdomen and a quite probably finely-tuned reflexes that keep him out of harm's way.  A level -1 wound would have hit him, but he instinctively dodged at the last minute.  A level 0 wound is almost a tip-cut or something similar, when the dodge wasn't so succesful, and a level 1+ wound is when the instictive dodge was marginally, decidedly, or quite definitely unsuccessful.

Remember, as well, that an extra-tough grizzly will be a TO of 10 or even more, because TO 9 is only the average.  Almost no humans, PC's included, will even think about going past TO of 6 or 7, because it just isn't worth it (thus, it's already the human maximum, to an extent) to go past that.  No one makes TO rolls.  It isn't called for in any skill.  The only use it has is to keep you from dying when you get hit, and one or two battles is usually more than enough to convince somebody that he doesn't want to be hit in this game anyway.

[svenlein]

Here's my experience with high toughness characters (TO 8).  Last night, we all built characters and sparred with them.  One guy created a massively tough, and massively strong character.  Not only that he was very fast.  But, the character only used his hands.  We'll call him Andre.

Now, we have him fighting a sword and shield user in leather.  We'll call him Bob.

-Joshua

If a guy with a sword parries a punch can he do damage?

This is a good question. It is certainly possible to deflect (we'll say "parry") many kinds of blows with a bare hand, but hard to do and very risky for some of them. I would say that there is a great possibility for taking damage to the arm on even a "successful" parry. How to do that mechanically, though...?

Jake

I was actually refering to this situation:
Guy tries to punch me.
I parry with my sword.
As an added bonus to him not hitting me, do I get to cut his hand off?

But I did find the responces about parring a sword interesting.

Scott

[Jasper]

This hasn't been mentioned yet, although I'm sure many are aware of it: in the Renaissance, it was an excepted tactic to do deflect a blow with the hand.  And it was done -- and taught -- with the full understanding that a puncturing of the hand was very likely.  However, better to have a hole in the hand than a hole in the face.

It's also not a terrible move, because something like a rapiuer would be momentarily held there in your hand (as apposed to a longsword which would just cut through and keep going) -- thus giving you, if you're not too shocked by the injury, a moment to attack your opponent while he's defendeless.

In game terms, this is basically a block and strike, but with damage to the hand a given.  Maybe a special maneuver is called for?  High-ish activation cost, but if successful, the attack is redirected at your hand, you get initiative, and your opponent's weapons is effectively beaten away (can't be used in defense).  Thoughts?