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Author Topic: Oriental Weapons  (Read 19189 times)
Spikor
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« on: August 13, 2002, 08:29:59 AM »

Any ideas out there on what the stats would be for oriental weapons specifically, the katana and the wakizashi?
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Bob Richter
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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2002, 08:37:50 AM »

Quote from: Spikor
Any ideas out there on what the stats would be for oriental weapons specifically, the katana and the wakizashi?


Just off the top of me head (and keep in mind I really have no idea what I'm talking about.)

Katana:
Take theLongsword as a base. It's a fairly similar weapon.
Increase the thrust ATN by 1 (Katanas aren't built for offensive thrusts.)
Increase the cut damage by 2 and work it like a Sabre. (-1 against soft armors, -2 against hard)

Wakizashi:
Maybe just use the Sabre stats? Or modify an Arming Sword like we modified the Longsword for a Katana?

As I said, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Someone more familiar with the weapons might have a better idea.
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Mike Holmes
Acts of Evil Playtesters
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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2002, 08:38:52 AM »

Quote from: Spikor
Any ideas out there on what the stats would be for oriental weapons specifically, the katana and the wakizashi?


I'm guessing scimitar and arming sword respectively? For the well fashioned ones with the super sharp edges allow a +1 damage until the sword is parried or hits armor. Then reduce it to normal until parried or it hits armor again. Then reduce it to -1. Great weapons against the peasantry, but fragile against armored foes, or those similarly armed.

Mike
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Riddlemaster
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Posts: 14


« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2002, 06:03:54 PM »

OK well were starting to drift more into my realm here so I got to disagree with on the lessing of damage every hit.  A finely made Katana is a work of art, a test theyuse to use is to see how thick a piece of wood they can cut it through.  While the Europeans were just figuring oout how to put edges on swords,, Japenese sword masters were folding there weapons.  I would rather take a Katana against a guy in chain or leather then a long sword, against plate just give me a big ass mace or warhammer.  AS for the rules on thursting your dead on in my Iado class the primary thrust attack in called a Skiet (probally spelled wrong) were you have to actually dip the blade to thrust up..  always felt very wierd to me.
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2002, 06:08:47 PM »

I don't want to get too hot-topic on this, but

there are lots of really overblown myths concerning the katana.

That's that. I've trained with Andy Mayer, who taugh ShinKendo for many years, a school that is very controversial because it takes kendo to a more martial, non-sport level. Their founder is Obata, who holds the record for hard test cutting in Japan since the 1300's; Andy trained under this guy. I know the guy that forged Obata's masterful katana, Paul Champagne, master swordsmith (I've handled one of his $8000 katanas as well).

The katana is a fine weapon, but its just a sword.

Jake
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Riddlemaster
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« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2002, 06:15:18 PM »

I agree 100%.  My main reason of prefering the Katana over the Longsword is weight.  I hate heavy weappons.  Now granted the longsword has its advantages.  Wanna see a 9K Katana shatter parry with spine of teh blade or the flat.  But ive never seen platemail take a full cut from either all i know is i rather get hit by either one then a damn warhammer or pick  Thats just got to hurt.
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2002, 07:23:12 PM »

what wieght are you thinking of for a katana and a longsword? A period longsword (4' total) weighs in at 2.5 lbs, and is masterfully balanced. I am not very familiar with katana weights, but I know that they are more dense and use more metal, but are also almost a foot shorter.

Jake
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"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -R.E. Howard The Tower of the Elephant
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Riddlemaster
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2002, 07:39:29 PM »

HUH???  UMMM  ::WALKS INTO OTHER room::  ok I got a so called long sword down (replica of Excalubir out of the Ecalibur movie) and a katan ain teh other hand.  No granted the Exclaibur is a show sword but it feels heavier.  Hmm  now also rember i have fought with longsowrds maybe 4/5 times and have practiced with Katana for close on 15 years.  So maybe its more a use to thing then actual weight.. but i bow to your knowledge my friend.
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2002, 08:04:59 PM »

The replica you have--or any replica that was made after a movie or that cost under $300 is going to be horribly--and I mean really horribly--made. Katanas, due to their more simple design (I can hear the indignation in the masses, but it's true) are easier to make in lower qualities.

The thing is that in Japan they have historical standards for the kinds of swords that are made, thus a reasonable high mark of crafstmanship. What we find in the west, though, is 99% crapsmanship and "sword like objects." The cheapest you'll find a sword with period wieght will be Del Tin or similar--the wieght will be pretty close, but the balance will still be wrong. We in the west have victimized our own martial heritage in a fashion that only the west could, and it's image has suffered, as have people's understanding of it.

Jake,
who is stepping off of his soapbox
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Valamir
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2002, 08:25:39 PM »

Its a good soap box to be on.  The number of smiths today who can forge even reasonably good swords in the west can probably be measured on the fingers of one hand.

The vast majority of swords out there are good for one thing and one thing only...they look cool hanging on the wall.  

Set aside evidence for the time being and just focus on pure logic.  Medieval battles could last ALONG time.  Many of them ended because darkness prevented further fighting.  Take a typical 8#, 12#, or even heavier replica sword.  Can you even concieve of a man swinging one of these things all day with one arm...I don't care what kind of shape they're in...it isn't likely.

Before the rise of nationalism and largely conscript armies the people who fought in Europe were professional soldiers with many centuries of tradition and expertise.  Its become fashionable (since the so called Renaissance actually) to think of them as big dumb barbarians.  Wrong.  Very wrong.  The idea of the Renaissance rising up out of the dark ages to restore culture is a HUGE myth.  Charlemagne's court could rival any renaissance princes and that was in the 800s.

The katana is a fine sword, but it is in no way shape or form inherently superior to a western sword.  That too is a myth, a myth that stems from the idea the west was barbaric while the east was cultured.  Also not true.
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Ron Edwards
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2002, 06:45:15 AM »

Hi there,

Spikor, here's my call, speaking as someone who knows a bit about fighting and has no particular axe to grind regarding the East/West comparison.

Katana = arming sword or longsword, depending on the length.

Wakizashi = shortsword or hefty dagger, depending on the length.

I don't see any reason to modify any of the rules or maneuvers for using them in-game.

Riddlemaster, some of this discussion is getting muddied by the fact that you don't have a "longsword" in hand - you have a modern-commercial object that serves as advertisement for a movie. All historical swords are way, way lighter than most people think.

Best,
Ron
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GreatWolf
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designer of Dirty Secrets


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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2002, 08:08:09 AM »

Quote from: Ron Edwards
Hi there,
Katana = arming sword or longsword, depending on the length.

Wakizashi = shortsword or hefty dagger, depending on the length.

I don't see any reason to modify any of the rules or maneuvers for using them in-game.


As an interested amateur, I'd agree with Ron.  However, I'd say that the wakizashi is more of a short sword and the tanto is a dagger.  I'd also be inclined to lean towards the long sword vs. the arming sword for the katana.  At least that's what I'd do if I were running samurai with TROS.

I'm also not going to get into a holy war over katana vs. long sword, since I don't know enough to fight that war intelligently.  :-)  I personally study kenjutsu, but I have never done any significant research into the western martial arts, so I can't make a reasonable comparison.  My old sensei has, but he's back in Erie.  :-(

Seth Ben-Ezra
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Seth Ben-Ezra
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Ron Edwards
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2002, 08:13:31 AM »

To clarify,

By "or," in my above post, I mean to say that both of the TROS designations may be used. That is, katana varied in length, as did wakizashi, or any weapon out there. For instance, if I were playing TROS set in one of the eastern-style settings of Weyrth, or in a historical or fantastical Japanese setting, I would permit a player to define katana as either longsword or arming sword depending on what the player wanted.

It's not a matter of having to define (say) "katana" as one, single, specified, this-is-it TROS designation.

Tanto = dagger, certainly.

Best,
Ron
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Mike Holmes
Acts of Evil Playtesters
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Posts: 10459


« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2002, 09:09:46 AM »

The reason I specified using the sabre or scimitar instead of the longsword, is that they have the reduced thrusting TNs, which it seems most agree is a factor with the japanese blades. They are also more similar in length ranges, on average, I'd think. Statswise, I think these make the most sense. As well, I think that the sword and shield, or two weapon combination (case of rapiers) would be the most likely proficiency. For example, I'm going to guess, that half-swording was never used with the very sharp japanese blades. I'd like to see a proficiency that focused on the two blades (katana/wakazashi), but had less thrusting, and more other maneuvers, than case of rapiers.

If you must use the longsword stats, consider reducing it's thrusting strength, and creating a new proficiency at the very least.

Mike
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Lyrax
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Posts: 268


« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2002, 10:24:05 AM »

It wouldn't be case of rapiers.  Rapiers are thrusting only weapons, and katanas are not.  The proficiency would, if anything, be more similar to cut & thrust or even longsword/greatsword, depending on how one uses the katana.  That is to say, a short katana with a wakazashi would definitely be cut & thrust, but a longer single weapon would be longsword/greatsword proficiency.

As for two weapons, that's cut & thrust, all the way.  Cut & thrust users always have an off-hand something or other.
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Lance Meibos
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