playtest and questions for Clinton

[xiombarg]

I just ran a quick pick-up game of Paladin with James and Emily (the same couple I ran Wuthering Heights for, the first time I ran it). It underlined something we talk about all the time here at the Forge (but happens less in practice than it should), generated questions about the rules, and generated a suggestion.

It was a Star Wars game right after Episode II. I made the mistake of throwing too many slightly-above-average (active Flesh attribute 3) mooks at the two of them (10 mooks, to be exact) and when things started to go badly, James had his character dip into the Dark Side. Heavily.  This turned him into a total badass, but when Emily confronted him about the use of the Dark Side after the combat, they started to fight, and even with the 7 Animus Emily's character got for confronting James's character (I ruled he was more powerful than her as he'd taken a lot less damage in the combat with the mooks), since he was fresh into the Dark Side and breaking different rules right and left, James had access to an insane amount of Dark Animus. When Emily's character tried to run, James's character shot her in the back with a blaster, killing her, as she was down to 1 Flesh and out of Animus at that point.

James then admitted he'd been planning to go Dark Side to test how abusive the system can get. This is the point the session underlined: We should have discussed this beforehand. If I had known this was one of his goals, I probably would have structured things differently -- perhaps sending an NPC Jedi with them, as we were pretty sure that a second Light Side Jedi along with Emily's character would have been able to take him out. (Also, if I had known he was going to do that I might have asked him NOT to.) Instead we had a protracted version of the discussion we SHOULD have had earlier after the game came to a screeching halt, my scenario in tatters.  Ah, well. It was a good playtest, still.

The rules question that came up during the game was: Okay, say I activate a Light Animus trait for a re-roll. Can I then activate a different Light (or even Dark) Animus Trait afterward, if I can explain how it makes sense? And if so, can I activate it for free, or does it count as a re-activation that I have to pay an Animus point for?

I also had a couple questions about group actions. First, is there any unusual effect if one person in a group is spending Dark Animus to do things and one is spending Light? This happened in the fight against the mooks. Emily's character was perfectly Light Side in her actions as described, only James was acting in a Dark Side fashion (dipping into his anger), so it seemed unfair to prevent Emily from spending further Light Animus points or activating Light Side traits just because they were sharing the pool, but I wasn't sure which way of doing it was intended. They had the same goal: taking out the mooks, just one was calling on his anger and the other other wasn't.

The other question about group combat is one I think I know the answer to: If all 10 mooks had blasters which add 1 die each, they get 10 extra dice to their total pool, right? This seemed wrong to me until I realized they'd only get to keep 3 dice of it (some of the mooks had an active Flesh attribute of 2), so it's more balanced than it seems.

Also, when running Paladin for Star Wars, I suggest to everyone tweaking the damage rules. There's a "death spiral" problem with damage that's an issue if you want to be cinematic, in that every point of damage greatly reduces character effectiveness, so the moment you blow a roll, it becomes easier and easier to blow a roll later as your Flesh attributes go down, especially if you're low on Animus. Emily had some really unlucky rolls that lead to this effect and contributed to her character's death.

This is fine in slightly grittier settings like the default Paladin setting, but IMHO it doesn't match Star Wars very well for Jedi to die that easily. I expected 10 mooks to be no problem for a couple Jedi (based on the movies) and was surprised. The fix is simple: Instead of one point of damage being one loss of a point from a Flesh attribute, make it so it take two points to reduce a Flesh attribute by one. This only applies to permanent damage caused by active attacks -- passive attacks, where the penalty is temporary and nonlethal, are the same. I think this simple change would make the action more cinematic and I'm going to try it the next time I run Paladin. I'll let y'all know how it goes. This issue and the suggestion was part of the subsequent discussion with the three of us, and was partially Emily's idea.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Kirt,

First, I like your damage idea for Star Wars. It sounds like it would definitely keep things cinematic.

Now for the harder questions:

Okay, say I activate a Light Animus trait for a re-roll. Can I then activate a different Light (or even Dark) Animus Trait afterward, if I can explain how it makes sense? And if so, can I activate it for free, or does it count as a re-activation that I have to pay an Animus point for?

You can activate a different Animus Trait if you explain how it makes sense. It does count as a re-activation, though, and does cost an Animus point.

First, is there any unusual effect if one person in a group is spending Dark Animus to do things and one is spending Light?

Um.. <looks around> ... lemme see. Here's one of those things I should have thought of before. As long as they have the same goal, it should be fine, actually. However, if your Code prevents you from working with someone using Dark Animus, you're going to be in trouble. (You know, that really should be part of everyone's Code as a special Law that doesn't give you Dark Animus, but is bad. Interesting idea for Paladin revised, which seems more like a good idea every day.)

I would say that if someone starts using Dark Animus in a fight, you can end the group action right there if you want, resolving that action and starting a new one.

The other question about group combat is one I think I know the answer to: If all 10 mooks had blasters which add 1 die each, they get 10 extra dice to their total pool, right? This seemed wrong to me until I realized they'd only get to keep 3 dice of it (some of the mooks had an active Flesh attribute of 2), so it's more balanced than it seems.

That's all correct.

Man, I'm excited people are playing this. You're right about Dark Animus being abusive - it's supposed to be. It gets harder and harder to use, though, which compensates for that. As Star Wars would tell us, it's the easier path, but with limited returns.

[xiombarg]

(You know, that really should be part of everyone's Code as a special Law that doesn't give you Dark Animus, but is bad. Interesting idea for Paladin revised, which seems more like a good idea every day.)

How would that work? I mean, the rush of Dark Animus -- and the lack of connection to Light Animus -- is the main punishment for breaking a Law. Game-mechanically. I also kinda assume the members of the order you belonged to are going to kick your butt.

Regardless, rather than a revised edition, how about a FAQ? If you don't have time to maintain one, I can host on my own page, starting by quoting the stuff that's been discussed here all in one place.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

I'll work on a FAQ today - I should have it up soon.

[Paul Czege]

Hey Kirt, Clinton,

I haven't read the Paladin rules, but if I'm following this discussion correctly, it seems to me that what's required are some guidelines for players and GM's. Players should know it's bad news to go up against a freshly converted Dark-sider, before they've reached the point where Dark Animus becomes more difficult to use, and GM's should have strategies available for provoking the fresh Dark Jedi to fritter away their sturm und drang until Dark Animus becomes more difficult to use. It seems to me from the films that a Dark-sider is generally required to spend his effectiveness on managing a power structure more than the Light-sider, and that there's probably room for rivalries among the Dark. "I feel a new presence in the Dark Side. His boldness will be tempered by an encounter with the rebels of Tetruiol." There seems to be a transition from initial raw power, to political power enforced by more judicious use of the Dark Side. "He will join with me, when I pull him from the jaws of death."

Paul

[xiombarg]

It seems to me from the films that a Dark-sider is generally required to spend his effectiveness on managing a power structure more than the Light-sider, and that there's probably room for rivalries among the Dark. "I feel a new presence in the Dark Side. His boldness will be tempered by an encounter with the rebels of Tetruiol." There seems to be a transition from initial raw power, to political power enforced by more judicious use of the Dark Side. "He will join with me, when I pull him from the jaws of death."

Oh, I agree. In fact, that was going to happen in that game, if the dice hadn't gone the way they did. If Emily's character had been able to escape, my original villian was going to show up, having noticed all the Dark Side activity. The rivalry thing would have definately been an issue, as she was a Force Witch who hated both Jedi AND Sith (the Sith had conquered her planet thousands of years ago, and when the Jedi showed up, they suppressed her order just as harshly, as it was Dark Side in orientation, driving her ancestors underground), so he would have burnt most of his remaining "easy Dark Animus" on defeating her, which would have made it possible for Emily's character to beat him in the end.

I think some play guidelines on this would be good, but really it kinda boils down to "watch Star Wars and extrapolate". ;-)