Gaming Comes Out-of-the-Box [was "Beginner-Friendly Gam

[quozl]

This brings me to a very "out-of-the-box" idea: that role-players aren't created by any sort of marketing - instead, they're born or socialized into the role.

It would be more optimistic to say non-roleplayers were socialized out of the role.  Personally, that's what I believe.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Jon,

I'm not going to argue whether you or I are right, but I want to point out that this argument brings into question that egalitarian idea that's always brought up: "Everyone can role-play."

Ok - I will argue. I think that idea is, frankly, bullshit. Why?

- Some people can't role-play. Seriously - some people just don't have this capability. I can program in seven languages and read 500-page novels in a day, but have no spatial reasoning. It happens.

- Role-playing fills a need in people's lives that some people don't have. I think the answer to this entire thread's question lies in the answer to another question: Why do people role-play?

The most common answer I've ever heard when asking someone, "Why do you role-play?" is "It's fun," or "For enjoyment." The fact is, that's not an answer. We're highly complex machines - fun comes from somewhere. It wouldn't be fun if it didn't strike something in you that made it fun. My question: what is that something? Why is roleplaying an enjoyable activity to some people?

When we find that out, then we can make sure everyone that would enjoy it knows about it.

[Walt Freitag]

Bluntly, I can think of no activity in elementary education that encourages this ability.

Except, of course, for just doing it. Which I and a similarly nerdy friend did together in elementary school from second grade on. At almost every recess. For years.

Most was just freeform descriptive narration, primarily of elaborate settings and histories rather than stories involving individuals. It was weird and probably doesn't lead anywhere productive, other than to point out that some will do it on their own.

I only recall one separate game we played that was more structured. One of us would narrate to the other a death-trap or imprisonment scenario (in second person: "You're locked in a stone room with spikes on the ceiling, which is slowly moving down..."), and the other had to describe an escape. I'd like to say this was our metaphor for the public school system or the Cold War or something, but it was probably more inspired by those cliffhanger deathtrap scenes and implausible escapes from the Batman TV show.

Shadows comes awful close to the mark here, doesn't it? Or does our hypothetical precursor activity have to not involve any grown-ups?

- Walt

[quozl]

Jon,

I'm not going to argue whether you or I are right, but I want to point out that this argument brings into question that egalitarian idea that's always brought up: "Everyone can role-play."

Ok - I will argue. I think that idea is, frankly, bullshit. Why?

- Some people can't role-play. Seriously - some people just don't have this capability. I can program in seven languages and read 500-page novels in a day, but have no spatial reasoning. It happens.

We may just disagree about this at a fundamental level because I not only believe everyone can roleplay, I also believe everyone already does.  

Do you have a job and act like a different person in front of your boss because that's the kind of person that gets promoted?  That's playing a role.

Do you go to a movie and think about what you would do if you were the main character?  That's roleplaying.

etc., etc.

Now you're probably going to say, but that's not a role playing GAME.  You're right.  Some people won't ever be interested in rpgs.  What I hope this thread is doing is getting people to think of how to connect people that would like rpgs with the roleplaying these people already do.

I hope that makes sense because it's the cornerstone of everything I've said in this thread.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Now you're probably going to say, but that's not a role playing GAME.  You're right.  Some people won't ever be interested in rpgs.  What I hope this thread is doing is getting people to think of how to connect people that would like rpgs with the roleplaying these people already do.

I hope that makes sense because it's the cornerstone of everything I've said in this thread.

Jon,

It makes perfect sense, and I don't disagree with it at all. In fact, it's the cornerstone of a lot of my arguments: some people need more role-playing than they get in their everyday lives, and turn to RPGs to fulfill that need.

[quozl]

It makes perfect sense, and I don't disagree with it at all. In fact, it's the cornerstone of a lot of my arguments: some people need more role-playing than they get in their everyday lives, and turn to RPGs to fulfill that need.

I think that need goes unfulfilled in many people's lives brcause rpgs are stigmatized in their eyes.  So what do they do instead to try to fulfill the need?  Maybe if we could recognize that behavior, we could try to reach them too.

[Eugene Zee]

Wow!  I come home from work and there are 50 posts.

Quozl and Clinton, I have a question.  Are you gusy saying that there is some sort of indicator that you believe can be used to find people who can be successfully introduced to roleplaying?

Also Clinton, I agree that people don't roleplay because of marketing but I do think that marketing has to be a consideration if you are trying to introduce new people to the market.  Even if it is grass roots marketing.

Regards

[Valamir]

I remain somewhat skeptical of the concept of gateway game.
Is there any evidence that young kids introduced to a certain type of game tend to morph into general gamers at a higher rate than shear random chance would suggest.

When CCGs were running rampant and dedicated RPers were getting annoyed at their favorite game stores being taken over by card players, the frequently heard refrain was.  Don't hate CCGs its bringing new players into gaming.  I've seen, however, no evidence that CCG players begin playing RPGs or wargames with any greater frequency than old fashion "hey wanna try this game?" would do.

Similiarly when fantasy miniatures games began taking off and historical gamers of ancients, civil war, napoleonic, or micro armor minis games were getting pissed off at the gaming tables in their favorite stores being taken over by a bunch of elves, we heard a similiar tale.  Warhammer will bring more players into miniatures gaming...Didn't happen.  I've been to HistoriCon in Lancaster, PA (one of the largest purely wargame and mostly mini wargame conventions left) and have seen no evidence of an influx of former WH players now playing Johnny Reb.

So I guess I'm kind of cynical about the concept.  It might be a good game, it might be fun for the young kids, it might be wildly popular (like Pokemon)...but will it actually effect the rate at which those kids crossover to "full fledged" gamers...I'm dubious.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Wow!  I come home from work and there are 50 posts.

Quozl and Clinton, I have a question.  Are you gusy saying that there is some sort of indicator that you believe can be used to find people who can be successfully introduced to roleplaying?

I might be.

This is one of those times I should formulate a complete thought first, but I'll answer your question.

Earlier in the thread, I said (in response to Fang asking me how to get new gamers): "Seek out the introverted, the sullen, the quiet creatives. Seek out the people you pass everyday that look at the ground. Seek out these people scrambling around for an outlet and give them one."

I think that's your indicator. I've come to believe that certain people enjoy role-playing games because they do not get enough role-playing in real life. That is, their social skills are poor enough that they do not resolve their emotions through normal everyday interaction. Therefore, they find the act of further stimulating and resolving these emotions through role-playing with like types very pleasurable.

[Jeremy Cole]

The argument seems to be based around forming;
a gateway game to ween people into RP
vs
people who want to game will find it.

I think there might be some detail in the middle worth fleshing out.

Most people don't RP.  Almost everybody watches movies, and most do it for plot, exploration and escapism (if the definitions I've are not exact, perhaps inclusive of one another or whatever, I think my point is still vaild).  To assert that the majority of people don't enjoy these elements is wrong, and these are the staples of RP .  I think the reason for the lack of popularity of RP comes from other areas.  Can we accept that 4 hours around a table every week for two months is not an acceptable situation for most of society?  Is pretend fighting something a lot of people don't need?

More to come...

[Jeremy Cole]

If you want to bring RP to the masses, I think we to fundamentally change it.  I think the wargame connections have to be thrown out part and parcel.  What if it wasn't Mr Gygax and instead Roman Polanski who first decided he wanted to pretend to be an Elf?  He would have come from cinema, and attached a very different kind of feel to RP, with its own strengths and weaknesses.  I think if RP can be envisaged along these lines RP could find a whole new audience.  Can RP can be attached to any and every entertainment group?

I think rather than 'getting 'em while they're young', or building games for what market there is, there might be a lot of ground in making games that facilitate RP for people who aren't us.  For people who don't want what we love, but may enjoy many elements of it, if its designed with them in mind.

Jeremy

[Le Joueur]

I remain somewhat skeptical of the concept of gateway game.

...So I guess I'm kind of cynical about the concept.  It might be a good game, it might be fun for the young kids, it might be wildly popular (like Pokemon)...but will it actually effect the rate at which those kids crossover to "full fledged" gamers...I'm dubious.

[ironic]No, you're right.  It'll never work; in fact, let's resolve to never do anything experimental or even try to reach new audiences.  What's the point?

There, is that sullen enough to make me a candidate to play role-playing games.[/ironic]

What are we arguing here?  It's not worth even trying?  By anyone?

I don't buy any wet blanket argument based on 'it won't work.'  No way to tell = it's worth a shot.  What exactly will we lose just trying?  Nobody's putting a gun to your head and saying you have to do it (or even like it).

Fang Langford

[deadpanbob]

Earlier in the thread, I said (in response to Fang asking me how to get new gamers): "Seek out the introverted, the sullen, the quiet creatives. Seek out the people you pass everyday that look at the ground. Seek out these people scrambling around for an outlet and give them one."

I think that's your indicator. I've come to believe that certain people enjoy role-playing games because they do not get enough role-playing in real life. That is, their social skills are poor enough that they do not resolve their emotions through normal everyday interaction. Therefore, they find the act of further stimulating and resolving these emotions through role-playing with like types very pleasurable.

Clinton,

I agree that this is one indicator.  In my gaming experience, I've seen others as well:

The Social gamer - comes along with a buddy or more recently in my later years, with a significant other.  This person can be hard to convert.

The Spotlight Seeking Extrovert - I've known a lot of people in my gaming groups who fit this profile.  They are generally quite outgoing, popular, usually into drama (again, folks, remember that this is based on my experience) and/or fine arts.  The game because they like the idea of being the Star or the Hero.  They usually have very good social skills.

The Power Tripper - to an extent this is me.  I tend to GM, and I like the power.  When I do don ye old player guise and sit in someone elses game, I find myself drifting heavily into gamist mode if I'm not careful, in a not-so-subtle attempt to take over the game from the GM.  I'm not extroverted, but I'm not a wallflower either.  I never was, in fact.

Again, in my experience, I see these types of gamers too.  There are ways, based on these profiles, through the dreaded M word (marketing) to target such people.  Problem is, most game publishers, and certainly most indie-rpg publishers don't have the money or resources to find and target these folks directly.

One of the things that attracts me to the Forge and to success stories like Clinton's and Ron's is their keen knack for on the cheap direct marketing.  I think one of the things that could really make a difference in widening the audience for RPGs is a really hardcore use of Direct and Databased Marketing - the professions that are trying to deliver on that whole 1:1 marketing idea you may have heard about.

With enough of the right kind of resources, the budding RPG publisher can find untapped target audiences for RPGs.

Are there enough of them out there to sell 10 million copies of a game overnight?  Probably not.  But there may be enough out there to ensure that another generation or two of RPGers gets solidified before all of us dinosaurs die off.

It would have to start with a place where actual game purchasers/players can be identified and their behavior tracked - places like the registered user base of WotC or WW or RPG.net or here at the Forge.  Once those folks behaviors have been analyzed, there are ways to profile this behavior and then seek others who fit the profile and directly market a game to them - via direct mail, electonrically, telemarketing.

All of this, of course, costs money.  The only viable options, aFaI can tell, is the internet/web/e-mail channel.  It could work, but I've not known any gaming companies to use this model at all - and I'm registered at most of their sites and have purchased games from most of them online.

Big missed opportunity here if you ask me.  BTW - in case you didn't know it from elsewhere - this is what I do for a living - Direct and Databased Marketing, Marketing strategy development, and Marketing and Research analysis.

Cheers,

Jason

[Eugene Zee]

Clinton,

I agree that the trend in rpg players currently is the folks who have a tough time expressing themselves in social situations, etc.  However I'm afraid that we limit ourselves too much to say, "Our population are the 'socially challenged' (I use the term loosely)."  What if the fact that most roleplayers are SC is because roleplaying is considered an activity for that type of person.  If that is true, it is the responsibility of the entire industry to change that.  I believe that the situation is the other way around.  We need to change the industry to invite more people of other types in.  For example, women are more common now than before in rpgs and this change has a reason.  There was a concept before that only nerdy, geeky guys played RPGs.  And now its just nerdy geeky people.  ;)  
I'm not saying that I am right but I think that it is something we should think about.

Ralph,
I used to work with children (ages 6-15) running D&D games in an afterschool program.  Many of them that would not normally be exposed to roleplaying played in my daily games.  They were of mixed age, sex, personality type and many other factors but they all loved it.  Many of them are still roleplayers.  Did more than the normal percentage of them, in relation to the rest of the population, pick up roleplaying.  I'm not sure, I don't really have those numbers.  But I guarantee that if you go to Alex, who is now a gorgeous young woman, and talk about roleplaying, her response will be way different than if she had never played before.  I agree that kids will probably not just mighty morph into an RPG ranger but I think that ultimately the gateway game will make our market larger by changing the perception of rpgs and making more people open to trying another rpg as they get older.

Finally, I want to say that although I think the "gateway game" is a great idea, I don't think it is a sure thing.  I think it is going to take some thought and development like we are doing right here to work.  Maybe it won't even be a rpg, it doesn't matter.  The point is to thoughtfully and carefully get more people doing what we love to do and to add to the industry.

Regards

[quozl]

It would have to start with a place where actual game purchasers/players can be identified and their behavior tracked - places like the registered user base of WotC or WW or RPG.net or here at the Forge.  Once those folks behaviors have been analyzed, there are ways to profile this behavior and then seek others who fit the profile and directly market a game to them - via direct mail, electonrically, telemarketing.
<snip>
BTW - in case you didn't know it from elsewhere - this is what I do for a living - Direct and Databased Marketing, Marketing strategy development, and Marketing and Research analysis.

Cheers,

Jason

Would you be interested in making a personality type survey for the people here at The Forge?  Would Clinton and Ron be open to having a survey hosted here?  We could get actual information on what type of people gamers are (at least the ones here at The Forge) and perhaps see what behaviors in others can be marketed to.