Brainstorming 'What is Gaming' Outside the Box

[Mike Holmes]

Deploy a full roelplaying game on PDA's with the infared hookup.  The program would handle all of the mechanics stuff, letting you know you hit, providing random descriptions of gore and what not.

Not a really new idea (there I go again). Lot's off people play with computers as tools. I've been working on this concept for about four years now, off and on, using spreadsheets.

First, sure, PDAs someday. For now, I envision using laptops. Networked. Use wireless if you don't want to mess with cables. This has the advantage of allowing pictures, video and music, etc. (which I think PDAs don't do well or at all, now). Anyhow, the GM presents the game via the machine. The players have nifty graphic representations of their characters and move them around ala the latest CRPG adventure games. And the game does all calculations etc (I have one that spits out random wound results that read a bit like Rolemaster results, but are combinations of several tables and effects making repetition unlikely) and displays results in easily manipulated formats. All to just free up the GM and players to do more role-playing. With web cameras or even just audio connections you can play over the internet. WebRPG could be seen as a simple and very early precursor to this sort of thing.

I've talked about this several times, but nobody seems to be interested. I refer to it as Computer Aided Role-playing or CARP (playing off both CAD and CRPGS). Lots o potential here. You could download scenario packs with sprites of monsters, maps, info on NPCs, plots, etc. Create your character sprite via a program like Heromaker (instant virtual miniatures). Yadda, yadda. Just get it all together and well implemented in one place.

I know I could never stop playing.

Mike

[Walt Freitag]

Paul,

That's a good point and I'm inclined to agree. However, I also find myself very willing to make an exception for Shadows. I'll have to think about why.

The thing is, character protagonism is dependent on audience interest.

Maybe I've missed a lot along the way, but this seems to me a new wrinkle in defining protagonism, which up til now had been (I thought) based on literary qualities of the story being created. Of course audience interest and literary quality are related, but if push comes to shove and you end up with either one without the other, which is paramount? Or are both necessary? (Perhaps that's a topic for another thread.)

Fang,

Then the order of the day would be team-building, wouldn't it? Gosh, that'd sure get the movement 'out of our box' really going wouldn't it?

I've tried. I will continue to try. And I hope others try too. But, building these teams is like organizing the barbecue where everybody wants to bring the potato salad. That is, everyone wants to provide the ideas and no one wants to provide the resources ($$$).

Start by doing the best you can to prove the concept on a low budget, then bring in partners? I've tried that too. (See World Games below.) It hasn't helped. It's hard to get a concept taken seriously unless you've already put big money into it.

(Anybody from the MacArthur Fellowship committee paying attention out there?)

Role playing gaming in the general sense doesn't always require assuming a fictional identity, but is that something you want to give up for the sake of crossover appeal?

I certainly do. I think the 'you have to be someone else' idea needs to be tossed out of the 'smallest possible description' I started with, just as much as the 'cannot do it alone' stuff. (I remember many fun times where we began superhero games by writing ourselves up as characters and giving them the powers; we called it avatar play.)

I agree, I just wasn't sure others would.

The focus of my long-term goals for gaming were set in 1982, at a first meeting of a new SF writers workshop. After the formal session was done, the conversation turned to role playing games (still something of a novelty for the mainstream) and I was talking about RPGs as forms of storytelling, GMing with a focus on story, and so forth. A woman said, "That sounds like such a great thing, but doesn't all the game stuff just get in the way? What I want to do is walk through a door and be in another world. Can you do that?"

Even though Ghostbusters was still a few years away, I knew that when someone asks you if you're a god, you say yes. So I said yes I could, and started working on LARP concepts. (I also, eventually, married the woman.) But the SIL-style LARPs never really came close to the "walk through a door" standard, nor did any other type of LARP I saw.

My partner and I are currently working on an algorithm for a console game that makes heavy use of 'moving clue' concepts to alleviate the railroaded or 'I cannot find the next widget' problem we've seen in other games. Taken a step farther and using a multitude of storylines, we want to make it 'learn the preferences' of the user and skew towards storylines that they seem interested in. It doesn't seem inconceivable that such a system could be wired into a park and the employees had to 'act out' the 'clues.'

My wife and I call them World Games, and it was the next thing we turned to after we felt that we couldn't go any further with the SIL LARPs (ca. 1990-1995). We built the games to be run as LARPs, but with a very different structure: more player-NPC interaction to provide a fixed framework for adventures, multiple parallel and intertwining (but still pre-planned) story lines that competed for player attention and allowed players to choose their preferred approach (puzzle solving, alliance building, flashy heroics, intrigue, etc.), and mechanisms to actively draw players into adventures instead of (as was common in computer adventure games at the time) making them work to find the adventure.  

World Games give incoming players simple half-page "character" sheets that focus on situation rather than character ("You are a space pilot. You own your own one-man ship. You've landed on this seedy spaceport. You're in trouble. Your goal is to get your ship back.") Players can walk in and start playing at any time while the game is open. The setting is created using actors (25-30 of them, for the spaceport) scattered around whatever space the game event takes place in. The actors have script outlines (not actual utterances, but specific ways to react to specific player actions or topics mentioned, and to player state). Player state changes other than possessions (e.g. whether the player is a known outlaw, or has reached certain milestones in certain plotlines) are recorded by the actors when appropriate (as directed by their scripts) by marking a coded state badge worn by each player. Each actor's location also contains some basic utilitarian game option or challenge, such as completing a manual dexterity task for money, or making certain trades, or playing a gambling game, or manipulating an electronic "lock" puzzle mechanism, or sifting through the recycling piles (thousands of cards labeled "Garbage") looking for a few useful items mixed in.

In other words, these were LARP worlds that could be turned into computer games, given a bit of development money.

The theme park idea adds the additional element of changing the meaning ascribed to a given action depending on the story line. For instance, of four people riding a roller coaster, one is told that it's a test of courage required for admission into a secret society. Another is delivering a "microchip" to the "agent" manning the exit area of the ride. Another is looking for a hidden landmark that is visible from the top of the initial hill. And the fourth just likes roller coasters.

Suppose you wanted a bedside "Storybook" for Zak's Shadows. What would it look like inside? Clearly, no lame branching story will suffice. But a list of story bit ideas, organized by current situation, might be very helpful. Start with the "Bumps in the Night" chapter that gives, say, thirty different ways to start the story. Then sections for each of many different situations that are likely to come up: "What the Unseen Scary Thing Does Next," "Uh Oh, Caught In The Act By Grownups!," "You Try To Run Away, But...," "Separated, What Now?," and so forth.

I couldn't help but seeing this as an actual children's book complete with a picture for the story. You are like 6 years and open up the book at: "What the Unseen Scary Thing Does Next" with a few words about what has happened and a picture. Mom or Dad could be GM!

Can we get Edward Gorey to illustrate it? This might be a whole new approach to 'choose your own story' books, played more as a self-engagement system rather than a branched narrative. I like it!

Cool. I too visualize this as an actual storybook presentation, one of those broad thin hardcovers with gorgeous full bleed art inside. I think Shadows itself could and should be presented this way, perhaps starting with a conventional adventure story told "Shadows" style (each page ends with "What I wanted to happen next was..., and what my Shadow wanted to happen next was...", making each page a mini cliffhanger; and the story would end with something like "Life sure would be easier without my Shadow around, but I guess it wouldn't be as interesting."). Then the how to play the game section. And if there's room, the story resources section I described for the parent/GM. And a little pouch with two dice.

However, I don't think this would be adequate for solo GM-less play (that would be a pale shadow of Shadows, IMHO) and I don't think it would be practical to illustrate all the possible choices. Maybe a few of the more generally useful ones.

Priced at $40 or less I would buy five of these as gifts the moment they appeared. I know exactly who I'd give them to. I'd probably buy five more for future gifts, just in case they weren't available later.

- Walt

[wyrdlyng]

A lot of good ideas are being tossed about but I have a question. What IS a computer roleplaying game? No, I'm not asking out of ignorance, I'm asking to establish what does and does not fall into the category.

Everquest and its myriad clones focus on wandering through a virtual world and killing the creatures therein. Some variations add less of a focus on combat but it still plays a large role in most MMORPGs.

MUDs are the precursors of Everquest and most follow the same format.

MUSHes are usually free-form, text-based roleplaying. Many have no real stats with just some written description of what you can do as a character sheet. (I'm not talking about those which are based heavily on existing Pen and Paper rpgs.)

Of these three, MUSHes seem to be the closest to "true" roleplaying. There is no inherent mechanical system adjudicating or limiting. Just some very strong Narrativist or Sim (depending on how you play) roleplaying. Players collaborate and decide what would be most interesting.

Now, let's take a broader look.

Is The Sims a roleplaying game? You play a role and the story is made from your decisions. Does it qualify?

How about a game like Animal Crossing? You can have multiple players, though not at the same time. The setting continues to progress and adapt according to the actions of your and the other players' characters.

Do free-form games like these count as roleplaying games?

[wyrdlyng]

I was thinking, why not combine the live action games that kids already play (You know, those Cops and Robbers games that are supposed to be the inspiration for roleplaying games ;) and combine it with something like the Click stuff Wizkids has put together.

Imagine something like a bracelet or medallion which keeps your stats on a dial-like thing. Make some really basic rules for kids to use when they're running around pretending to be whatever it is that kids pretend to be these days. Make different characters in the forms of different medallions. You could even do different genres through different medallions.

Okay, picture kids playing superheroes. Different medallions/bracelets would be used for different superheroes. When you get zapped/hit/etc by another superhero you turn the dial on your medallion/bracelet which uses a very simple code to let you know how your hero is doing. Different heroes could be sold in different expansions.

Basically, it eliminates the figures and tabletop from Heroclix and makes each person a character.

(Adapting this to LARPs would negate the need to carry about a character sheet with you. Working it into some genre appropriate costume jewelry would probably be best.)

It would serve as a good gateway item to more complex rpgs later on as the kids get older. (Does this make it sound like a drug?) "Oh, it's like MedaHeroes but without the running around!"

So what do you think?

[Mike Holmes]

Imagine something like a bracelet or medallion which keeps your stats on a dial-like thing. Make some really basic rules for kids to use when they're running around pretending to be whatever it is that kids pretend to be these days. Make different characters in the forms of different medallions. You could even do different genres through different medallions.

Sounds like Laser Tag (IIRC the chestpiece kept track of score). Perhaps a more complex laser tag? With character motivations built in and ever changing to refelct the situation?

Mike

[damion]

Alex:
Actually, that sorta exists. My teenage cousins play something like it, although it was fantasy, not super heros. You had foam swords and stuff and got to make your own charachters, with tags on peoples belts for tracking stuff like spells and hitpoints.

As for suggestions: There was a post yesterday which I can't find >:( where someone suggested doing a De Profundus style e-mail game based on the X-Files and actual on-line news stories. If I could find it, I'd givem them a star for a darn kool idea.

[wyrdlyng]

Sounds like Laser Tag (IIRC the chestpiece kept track of score). Perhaps a more complex laser tag? With character motivations built in and ever changing to refelct the situation?

Actually I first thought of Laser Tag but thought "less complex." No needing to shoot from a certain side or batteries or guns. Just something that keeps track of your stats, such as they would be.

And actually I was thinking of targeting littler kids. You start telling them about character motivations and they'll wander off.

Just a "foot in the door" type of product.

[Le Joueur]

A lot of good ideas are being tossed about but I have a question. What IS a computer role-playing game? No, I'm not asking out of ignorance, I'm asking to establish what does and does not fall into the category.

Okay, I'll take a stab at this.  You can play a role-playing game with a computer; that's for granted.  The mistake (to me) comes when you first eliminate interacting with other human beings.  (That's what I was getting at above.)  Next there is no emotional engagement like that the usually comes during character generation in tabletop role-playing games.  (This leads to super-token-play; the thing on the screen isn't your character, it's largely a pointer.)  Finally, the railroading; not only are you unable to influence even the smallest details in the game (outside of failing) and you're rendered virtually a spectator, you actually have to 'hunt around' for the parts to make the story move forward.  To me that's just a movie that you 'have to work for,' not a role-playing game.

Of these three, MUSHes seem to be the closest to "true" roleplaying. There is no inherent mechanical system adjudicating or limiting. Just some very strong Narrativist or Sim (depending on how you play) roleplaying. Players collaborate and decide what would be most interesting.

You've got my vote; now how do we milk that and tabletop as variations on a 'higher philosophical product.'  How do you make both spin offs of a 'bigger thing?'

Is The Sims a roleplaying game? You play a role and the story is made from your decisions. Does it qualify?

According to the author, its a toy, not a game.  Since there isn't any interaction with others, it fails one of the tests.  Maybe two since there doesn't be always happen to be that emotional connection (the 'you are there' part).  But since it's a toy, you can make up any game you want; therefore (with drift) you could play a role-playing game with it (at least theoretically).

How about a game like Animal Crossing? You can have multiple players, though not at the same time. The setting continues to progress and adapt according to the actions of your and the other players' characters.

Could be, never heard of it.  Maybe you could take a stab at the 'minimum necessary' description and answer this one yourself.  Would you be comfortable with the whole 'umbrella term' of role-playing games, if these were included?

Thanks for taking the 'core description' for such a rigorous 'test drive.'

Fang Langford

[Le Joueur]

I was thinking, why not combine the live action games that kids already play (You know, those Cops and Robbers games that are supposed to be the inspiration for roleplaying games ;) and combine it with something like the Click stuff Wizkids has put together.

Imagine something like a bracelet or medallion which keeps your stats on a dial-like thing.

(Adapting this to LARPs would negate the need to carry about a character sheet with you. Working it into some genre appropriate costume jewelry would probably be best.)

For a Native American or Aboriginal live-action role-playing game design, we considered a 'character staff.'  Colored strings indicated values and runes or notches stood for what was rated; we needed more research.  It was just a thought.

I like where you're going with this.  Care to start a design thread with this as the subject?

Fang Langford