Alternate Demon power calculation

[Bailywolf]

This is just a quick question...

Ron (and any others willing to take a shot at this), I understand the basic 'formula' for demon Power.  # of Abilities +1 (= to will)... but then in effect a demon with a high power MUST also have a broad swath of Abilities.  What if I desire a much less versitile demon, but one with higher Power... say a single ability of Boost or a Special Damage or a Travel/Transport?  What if I wanted my demon to be awesome...but limited?

Can this be handled simply by allowing a sorcerer to summon a Demon with as high a Power as desired?  In this case, would Will still be calculated in the normal way, or would Will be set equal to Power instead of the other way around?

Perhaps an example...

Corvir Maag is Ascendant Master of the Black Rose, and a very potent Sorcerer.  He decides to bestow a potent weapon upon a valued underling, so he conjures Briarlash- an object demon taking the form of a barbed vine-whip.  Briarlash is a simple creature- if well fed (it drinks a mixture of cherry wine and blood) and satisfied with its use (merciless violence), it will serve even a simple warrior almost willingly (a Lore 1 character).  

Briarlash demonstrates a simple Special Damage (slashing whip) with the Range ability.   But Corvir will not be satisfied with a weak (S2/W3/L2/P3) demon- he wishes the thing to be a deadly powerful weapon.  So he summons Briarlash as if it had a Power of 8.  

Fine.  At this point I wonder how to stat out the demon.  My gut says, just give it a power of 8 (this is what you have to Contact, Summon, and Banish against) but keep its Will at 3... this makes for an easier binding, but doesn't seem unreasonable considering how all other aspectes of Sorcery dealing with the demon will be much more difficult.

I also sort of like the temptation aspect of it... the easier Binding roll might tempt some players to mack their demon's Power out...but demons aren't super powers...they have a tendency to get loose... and trying to banish Briarlash is going to be a BITCH (8+3).


Ideas?


-Ben

[Mike Holmes]

Can this be handled simply by allowing a sorcerer to summon a Demon with as high a Power as desired?

I think this is how it works. Don't have a book on hand, but I think that power is at least as high as abilities. But it can be as high as you like.

Most just make power = abilities so that the summoning and other humanity rolls associated aren't any worse than they have to be.

Mike

[hardcoremoose]

Hey there,

The way I did it in Charnel Gods is to pump the Demons' Stamina up (Will, and thus Power, is actually the higher of Stamina or Lore +1).  But maybe you don't want a Demon with an obnoxiously high Stamina (it was perfect for Charnel Gods, where the Fell Weapons are well nigh indestructible, but sometimes have only a few powers).

- Scott

(and I just checked my Sorcerer book.  It does in fact say that Will is at least 1 die higher than the higher of Stamina or Lore).

[Bailywolf]

Scott, that is a very elegant solution (I'm shamed for not thinking of it myself), but in the mix you also jack the demon's Will to ungodly levels (entirely apropriate for a Fell Blade, but less so for your every day sorcery).  Still at sea, still at sea.

[hardcoremoose]

Bailywolf,

I just edited in a clarification, verifying Mike's statement.

I think you're pretty much stuck with having a high Will no matter how you do it...

- Scott

[Bailywolf]

It isn't explicit in the rules- so far as I've found (I haven't gone back over them fine-toothed, but I've read back over where I thought a clarification might be lurking).  It doesn't seem like a violation of either the rule's spirit or letter... but a fuzy area.

I'd like a bit more potential variance in a demon's scores anyway... ah well.  As an aside, why not represent demons with only one score- power?  Since all the other scores are either equal to this score or one pip more... why not just unify it for easier book keeping?  

But back to the actual subject... ???

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Ben,

I think you're confounding Will with Lore. The number of a demon's abilities is set by Lore.

Therefore a demon with a high Power must indeed have a high Will, but nothing says its Stamina or Lore have to be at their maxima (which would be one less than Power/Will). They can be dropped all the way down to 1.

So say you want a big shadowy demon but with only a couple of abilities? No problem - by the rules, say ...

Stamina 4, Will 10, Lore 3, Power 10
Big, Shadow, Link

Now, I can't see any tactical reason to drop Stamina below its maximum like that (Stamina serves as a battery for abilities' use, after all), but it's allowed. I often leave Lore low, for demons whose "use" is covered by only a few but who I still want to be big'n'tough.

Best,
Ron

[Bailywolf]

I think that answers my question, but just for clarification- by the book, it is not possible to summon for additional Power above and beyond the demon's Will score... yes?  High Power demons will inherently have a high Will score as well.  

In the above example then, there is no reason not to load Briaralsh with 6 more Abilities... rather, no mechanical reason.  I can see several character-driven reasons why one might not want to gift even a loyal underling with a demon-lash of excessive power...he might start getting ideas...  but it still makes a one-trick demon who's one trick is powerful just as hard to deal with as a demon with half a dozen abilities at the same Power score.  

I ask because the question came up during a pre-pre-game lowdown I was giving one of my (potential) players for the Dreamlands crossover game I'm planning.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

I think you got it, Ben.

Also note the minor ways, post-Summoning, in which Power and Will may be tweaked according to the victories in the rolls, so that they end up slightly different from one another. That's not a hard-and-fast rule so much as a suggestion, and it's probably appropriate only for certain settings and certain groups.

Best,
Ron