weapon lenght after bash

[Thirsty Viking]

Despite similarities in construction, a pike is a totally different weapon from a spear. It is longer. It is thicker. And Moment of Inertia (Physics, that is,) dictates that it CAN NOT be used in the same manner.

Your jabs will not be as strong or as quick. Your draws will be similarly plagued. And you will find (if you ever try) that you CAN NOT reposition quickly enough to catch a flank action by a lone man.

I agree with some of your physics.  Some.  More weight = less speed.  it is however the same strength  i.e.  momentum.  Exactly what that amonunt of speed is  depends on how much force is used to set it in motion.  I the question is can i accelerate a 10' long spear faster than a 14' pike..  the answer is yes.  That doesn't make the 14' pike slow though,  just not as quick.   Other factors come into play.   my legs accelerating me and spear at 305 pounds, accelerate me and pike at 330 slower.  (yes yes, i'm sure the 5# spear, and 30# pike are over done...  i don't have the figuers for them.)  these figures would suggest my leg acceleration to be > 10/11 the speed of using a spear.  This is where most of my power comes from on a thrust with any weapon IMO.  For arguments sake we'll rate the arm speed as 1/4 of the power so even though this example the pike is 6x as heavy.  but again  the arms accelerate not just the pike but the arms themselves.  lets say the arms weigh ... i don't know 10 pounds (again i think 5# per arm too light,  for me anyway).   than makes spear acceleration of 15# and the pike 40#   3/8 the arm speed.

If my assumptions are close the speed of a pike at6 30# is roughly 85% the speed of a 5# spear thrust.  Personally I believe that these assuptions have exagerated the speed diffrence.  the only one that might be argued against me is the percent of speed from arms, versus legs...  this is a matter of style of ussage.  cetainly if i stand flat footed, rooted to the spot and don't lean my body it becomes all arm speed.  as for weight of my arms...   my forearms are bigger than 5 lbs of hamburger,  I doubt they are less in weight.

Lastly I didn't address the issue of muscles working more effeciently in some locations that others.  This will further reduce the effects of the speed diffrence. because the stronger force is applied slightly longer on the slower moving object..  thus imparting more acceleration.

As for body weights, I used my own naturally.   A 120# man would be more affected by the diffrence than I would  possibly to the point where he'd be better than i would with spears, but i'd beat him with pikes.  I'll race any 120# man up a mountain.   As long as he has to carry the same total weight to the top as I do.  I may not always win.  but the lighter they are the more often I will.   120# men aren't used to walking at 300+#'s.  Staggering would be a better description after a decent distance, then falling.   If you guys are thin wiry types,  you may be so intimidated by this difference that you don't understand my View point.

In the real world you can't just look at a weapon unless it is thrown. even then the style of throwing matters.  Run up throws will reduce the effects of weight on speed.

[Thirsty Viking]

Jake what did you mean when you said "I'd say that you're welcome to dodge, but you forfeit any advantage you would have had due to range. Hmm... "?

When is there a situation when a 14' pike man would want to drop his pike and pull out a sword?

People were suggesting to avoid the pike's high DTN by dodging at a DTN of 7 instead. This is fine, but I would not penalize the attacker with the range difference between his dagger (or whatever) and the defending pikeman. Thus a pikeman can dodge, but he loses the bonus for having a longer weapon in the process, because he's not trying to keep his weapon between himself and his opponent--which is what "parrying" sort-of represents in TROS.

Therefore if the dagger guy got close in it would make more sense for the pikeman to pull a sword and have a more reasonable range advantage over the dagger guy. This is doubly true if the dagger guy has wisely grasped his opponent's pike. Then, instead of trying to recover the lost pike, the pikeman would just pull his sword and go at it.

Jake

Ok this is where i have to ask you Jake...  if my pike has been beaten aside... Im not alowed to use it on the next exchange.   my vision of the dodge when i have the range advantage is stepping back and/or turning  bringing the pike inline with the opponent so he will not close the distance.  It looks like a counter, but no bonus to my attack.   Once he closes (indicated by a success magin on an attack,  I've already lost the bonus).  the only thing a pole arm parries at range is other polearms...  and it should have a better DTN for that.  Parrying any other weapon the opponent has gotten past it's point to the place where they are in range of thier weapon,  I don't see how a successful parry of a shortsword re-establishes that distance.

[Thirsty Viking]

It would only need to be about five or six feet wide.  That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.  Maybe even four feet.  As long as the man isn't touching both sides of the alleyway just by standing there, he can turn around.  The TN wouldn't be much, if any higher, and the damage would be the same as a short staff, roughly.  That's more than enough to kill somebody.  In short, I think it would be worse for the dagger user.  If a man with a "short" staff can kill two men with swords, then a man with a long staff should have no trouble with two men with daggers.

It all depends on how long the pikeman has to react.  first off there will be a triangular section of alley way infront of the pikeman when he turns around that he just can't hit.  the length of pike behind him will not allow it.  the narrower the alleyway the more this is.  The pike is on the wrong side of his body.   his hands are not only reversed front to back, the grips are all wrong.  he loses the power from his legs.  Indeed the best attack he has is a half blind backward thrust.  or lifting the pike all the way above his head and thrusting down...    Dropping the pike, stepping over it, and picking it up.  hmm  If he has the time he can lift the pike all the way above his head, take a spin-step back moving his former rear hand toward the head of the pike and regripping. lowering the pike while reversing the grip of his forward hand.   this places him in position,  but takes 2 seconds from when he becomes aware of the threat from the rear?   If he has this time I agree with you.  he is ok..  as long as he is only threatened from the new front.    As much as I defend the pike in the open field, on the dueling ground against one man with a dagger.   I'd not take it as my primary weapon through alleys and woods.

[Thirsty Viking]

Though some think the answer here is GREATLY SLOWER  I disagree with them.  

And you're wrong. No bones about it. You're simply wrong. It's physics. You can't beat physics. Don't even try.

And if you really want a demonstration, come up to Richland, WA and I'll try to show you what I mean.

Don't even bother to respond to this post until you've actually gone out and swung around poles of varying length and therefore have SOME idea what you're talking about.

I'm not beating physics i don't have too.  But i'm not ignoring inconvienent aspects of them either.  
Does a longer pike spin slower than a shorter one ...yes.  
does it take a guy 10' away longer to shift around me than 7' away.  yes.  
does a 14'  weapon   swing slower than 10' weapon yes.  
does it have less momentum....  NO
does it hit harder... Generally yes if swung. about the same on a stab

The problem with these demonstartions is they only have value at full speed.  that generally means if the dager guy is proved wrong he takes one heck of a wallop or stab.  my coming across the country to washington potentially puts me in jail far longer than if you die in my yard while attacking me with a knife.   For either of us to show up at the other place is foolish in the extreme.  You can at least demonstrate your theory by simulating an attack.  I can only prove mine by carrying it out for real.

The question has almost nothing to do with absolute speed.  but with sufficient speed.  as far as the stab goes,  the speed drop off is relatively small.  less than 15% IMO from another post.  assuming the pike weighs 30# and the spear only 5#(gurps spear weighs 4# but can be used 1 handed, however accurate that is).    There is no doubt at all,  that when i spin in place,  i can spin far faster than you can run around me at any distance.  adding a pike will slow my spin down considerably.   adding distance will increase the circumfrence your trying to run around.  at 10' radius you have to travel ~60' to circle me as opposed to only ~30 at 5'.  this affects you less...  but it affects you.

In short...   any Dagger man that is extremely superior in skill level can defeat a pike.  the game shows this in it's rules  and we all agree.  Where we part company is you seem to think anyone moderately competant can defeat a pike very easily.

[Jake Norwood]

Well, there was some cool stuff going on in this thread, but tempers have flaired a few times, and now we have personal challenges. Again. Dangit, guys...I HATE MODERATING!!!

So don't make me, or I'll get angry and never write another book...

I'm not closing the thread (though it occured to me), I'm just calling for a chill and a re-focusing here.

Jake

[Thirsty Viking]

Well, there was some cool stuff going on in this thread, but tempers have flaired a few times, and now we have personal challenges. Again. Dangit, guys...I HATE MODERATING!!!

So don't make me, or I'll get angry and never write another book...

I'm not closing the thread (though it occured to me), I'm just calling for a chill and a re-focusing here.

Jake

If you meant me Jake  I didn't consider that a challenge,  just an explanation why My allowing him to demonstrate  would have no meaning at anything but a full speed combat level.  It was the same point i tried to make before...   i tried to do it more tactfully this time. maybe i failed.

I didn't really think he was challenging me to combat.  i figured he was just going to make me spin with different lengths of wood.  that would be meaningless IMO.  The only true demonstration is a live demonstration.  even  sufficient padding on all the striking surfaces on a 14' pole would seriously change it enough to be almost meaningless IMO if he managed to get through.  If he was padded enough,  then he would blame his armor when he didn't.

Trying to PROVE this in RL  is too dangerous to accept that it is less than a grave risk for the dagger wielder.  He could prove his point by getting close to me with a small stick.   I could only prove mine by rendering his attaing that closeness so painfull that he'd be ineffective. Given the amount of force used in such a demonstration with all the advantages and disadvantages inherent in a 14' pole...   To suggest that it might be less than fatal is a disservice.  While it is true that a busted knee, broken arm or cracked ribs ... might be sufficient to stop the rush...  I'm not skilled enough to guarantee that would be the extent of the exposure.

I have edited my post slightly in case it was mine that you objected to.

[Lyrax]

Presumably the 14' pikeman would be dodgeing backwards mostly.  Would you still suggest this "no range penalty" idea?  Posibly the dodge backwards alows you to keep your range benifit, but you need to make a terrain roll since your running backwards while concentrating on keeping your spear between you and the dagger guy.

That's if he's doing a full evasion.  A partial evasion is a little different, because it's barely staying out of reach of the opponent's weapon.  I would check movement scores, however, to see if the daggerman can close that far in half of a round.

[Bob Richter]

Where we part company is you seem to think anyone moderately competant can defeat a pike very easily.

And that's a terribly vital place to part company.

It doesn't become any less true for my believing it.

I assume you've heard of conservation of angular momentum?

Let me see if I can remember the formula.

Nope.

Damn.

Point is, with a pole that long, I can run around your circumference faster than you can spin in place. If I wasn't out of shape and nearly a hundred pounds overweight, I could do it all day any day of the week.

Your foot-speed isn't in question here. Sure, you're only (at most) 15% slower on the thrust with a pike. The problem is that any moderately competant daggerman won't be where you're thrusting. By that time, he's inside your guard and you're lost again.

Why?

Conservation of angular momentum. At ten feet a swing from a 14' Pike carries significantly less energy (that's what does damage, not momentum) and momentum (which could, conceivably, knock me over, if I was that easy to knock over, which I am not.) than a swing at 10' from a 10' pole.

Again we come to the idea of you backing up faster than I advance. Chances are, you don't.

For that matter, you'll have enough trouble reversing direction from that (indubitably) failed thrust.

Try to use a Pike like a Spear, regardless of the circumstances, in combat, and you're dead.

Have I gotten my point across, or do I have to sign a waiver on the point of my own injury or death to demonstrate it to you?

[Valamir]

That's essentially the same arguement I've been making Bob...they didn't buy it from me either.

[svenlein]

ok, people dont agree about the relative strengths of a dagger vs a 14' weapon.

Does everyone agree that against each other, a 7-10' Long spear should defeat a 14' pike? (equal fighers, in an open field, unarmored)

Unless the dodge rule is changed as suggested by Jake, i think in tros the 14' pike guy would win, b/c of range.

Silver:
"Make this for a general rule, all long staves, Morris pikes, Forest bills, Javelins, or such like long weapons, of what sort so ever, being above the true lengths, the shortest has the advantage, because they can cross and uncross in shorter time than can the longer."
(the true length being that of the short staff in Silvers mind)
Scott

[Lyrax]

svenlein - I agree with you.

Bob - I think that last post is pretty idealistic of you, in terms of conditions.

[Thirsty Viking]

yeah bob,  you would as I have Clearly said more than once now.  We disagree on too many things to continue this thread between us IMO.   As Jake has said  if it really irks you  change it in your game and be done. So I think it is best for us to be done.

For the rest of the thread....
I am well aware of angular momentum. and the fact that the pole will make me spin slower  with it's 7' wings.  than i'd spin at if they were five.   The ten feet is how far away the dagger man needs to be in order to be out of striking range. need to be not to be in striking range.

A guy with a short staff would kick both pike and dagger butts, as most if not all people here agree.   at 7'  it would be a better chance for either of us, though definately still not good for dagger... and  no better than perhaps even for Pike, probably a little worse than that.   not till the short spear do I thinK my advantages would out weigh my disadvantages...   silver agrees with me on that...   but not something i'd be anxious to try.  Like a dagger he should just throw it from range.

In case the point was missed...  dodging with a range advantage is not running backwards... I'd say that clearly wouldn't work.  It is shifting position a step or two IMO,  while readying the weapon in a threat that deters the advance.   the charachters in Wyerth, live and die by thier dueling, and would have war more intimate understanding of the weapons than we do...   They will respect an appropriate threat and break off.   If a player declares that he will not honor that.(after defensive dice are selected, before the dodge roll).. I'd allow an oportunity attack....  If sucessful the player is hit and probably stopped.  Possibly with serious injury.   Reroll the # of success from the TN 7 Dodge roll  as an ATTACK roll and apply dammage normally.  then the charachter can roll his attack after lost dice for shock.  ( he loses his attack dice first, and may not add more dice).  This is less successful than a counter with a pike and less effective but keeps every successful beat from automatically negating range penaltes.  First time i've tried to quantify this.

It is a little rough,  but my idea is open for discussion.

[Bob Richter]

yeah bob,  you would as I have Clearly said more than once now.  

Okay. You're too hard-headed to have a logical discussion on the matter.

That's just what I was trying to determine.

You'll continue to think of a Pike as a spear, no matter who tries to educate you about the matter and how.

Fine. I can deal with that.

I can't respect it, but I can deal with it.

Hint taken. Discussion over.

[Thirsty Viking]

yeah bob,  you would as I have Clearly said more than once now.  

Okay. You're too hard-headed to have a logical discussion on the matter.

You'll continue to think of a Pike as a spear, no matter who tries to educate you about the matter and how.

Fine. I can deal with that.

I can't respect it, but I can deal with it.

Hint taken. Discussion over.

Then we have agreement at last,  we both agree that the other one is too hard-headed to have a logical discussion on the matter.  And neither of us respects the others handling of the argument...  I just tried to end the discussion without personal insults.  Since this couldn't be done...  I'll think very hard before responding to any of your messages in the future.  I'm not here to engage in flame wars or Vendetta's.  

Good Bye  BOB.

[Thirsty Viking]

I say a PIKe is a Spear. also a javelin is a spear,   A spear is a pole with a meatal "blade" attached to the end of it for thrusting.

A scimitar is a sword, A rapier is a sword, a dopple-hander is a sword,  One can even argue that a dagger is a sword,  albeit a very short one.   A sword being a metal blade extending from a handle.

There will be diffrences in the usage of all these weapons.  I don't deny that,  but within the catergories the similarities are also present.  If I thrust with a pike,  I expect the Daggerman to try to dodge.  His life depends on it.    Assuming equal dice, his dodge will usually be successful.   but he'll be working so hard at not getting stabbed,  he has no time to close.  Eventual I'll hit better than he'll dodge assuming equal dice.  And then the dice will no longer be equal.  If I was the daggerman  i'd fully evade... The pikes not even gonna catch my fat but out there.

Pikes are more awkward,  and a little more limited at 14' than at 10'.   However the basics are all still there.  (ok  for this i used metal pipe 10' long at 1/2'   and some joined sections of 3/4' for a heavier 14' length...  I didn't have Periode weapons to play with, and i never found amy postings for actuall weight of a 14'-15' pike, or any pike for that matter, being movements i'm not used to,  I'm sure to be quite sore tomarrow.)

There have been arguments made that if i use a pike as a spear i DIE,  but then they said if i use Pike at all I die.  I have said that it would be a rough road at a disadvantage against a longsword and shield.  I had several reasons for this.   A big one is the range issue. It seems to me that a guy with a longsword can kill me while standing ~ 6' away.  this forces me to make choices with a pike...   do i extend the pike further?  making it un-balanced to increase the range?  This will be more fatiguing, and the tracking will be slower.  This also greatly limits the ability to use the but end to counter a charge.    I think longsword wins fairly easily if i do.   If I don't then his rush having to cover much shorter ground is more easily accomplished.   This is all there in the combat system.  Not only that but his Beat is dreadully effective. because he has more dice to use for it and still be able to close than the dagger wielder.

This all makes sence...   a beat with a longsword should be better than from a dagger, or shield. IMO.