An Economic RPG, anyone?

[Mike Holmes]

Ever play Realms of the Unknown(ROTU)? It was a game all about economy, etc, but didn't have your scaling factors, etc. There was also another game available online called (IIRC) Evoluton (or Evolve?). In that game you started out with very few rules about populace, etc, and then made up rules each turn as the game progressed.

These games have some of the same sort of vibe I'm getting. I've always been very interested in this sort of stuff, and have been lately thinking about them a lot. What I'd like to see is a game where not only economic factors were considered, but all manner of political factors. Still your game may be a model for what I'm looking for, or be adjustable to fit.

Mike

[Kuma]

There was also another game available online called (IIRC) Evoluton (or Evolve?). In that game you started out with very few rules about populace, etc, and then made up rules each turn as the game progressed.

I'm working on a more narrative version of this system which uses "Eternal Verities" for actions.  (Player: The Tuatara pursue Beauty this turn by investing their energies into massive hanging gardens in the city of Kadesh.)  If you have a link for the game, I'd appreciate it.  At one crazy interval when I was researching like a madman, I was thinking of tinkering with cellular automata in paper RPGs.  

I'm better now.

What I'd like to see is a game where not only economic factors were considered, but all manner of political factors. Still your game may be a model for what I'm looking for, or be adjustable to fit.

Wait for the Lord expansion to Elsewhere, coming in 200*cough*.

:^)

[Mike Holmes]

If you have a link for the game, I'd appreciate it.

Wish I could help you. But I lost the url, and doing a search is like looking for a needle in a haystack (lots of games titled like this).

Mike

[contracycle]

Justv a thought on scaling as outlined above, which is to mention my fondness for systems which convert from Fortune to Karma.  The scaling system - say over the 3-point convenient range - can be structure such that certain major disparities result in automatic resolutions.  A 4-point difference might be automatically resolved, or automatically resolved with a cost, something like that.  In may experience with modelling systems to date, the numbers go exponential very quickly and becomc, in tabletop terms, unusable.

Lastly, I will mention that one "barter" economy I am familiar with in ssome detail is the celtic cattle economy; I like this one because the one-cow "currency" is big n grainy and arguably quite suitable for such a systemic structure.  It's also quite suitable to independant zooming without too much concern for large fixed land areas, given the "microclimate" nature of these structures.  In a similar vein, it might be more useful to target similar semi-independant entities such as the city-state rather than heading straight for large, territorial states.

Oh yes: another source for these emchnaics is board games, of cousre, notably History Of The World and its ilk.  Some cunning mechanical conventions in these.

[Nick the Nevermet]

I'm working on a more narrative version of this system which uses "Eternal Verities" for actions.  (Player: The Tuatara pursue Beauty this turn by investing their energies into massive hanging gardens in the city of Kadesh.)  If you have a link for the game, I'd appreciate it.  At one crazy interval when I was researching like a madman, I was thinking of tinkering with cellular automata in paper RPGs.  

Now I'm even more curious, though I'm a little hazy on how this is narrative.  When I read this part of your post I thought of the explicit allocation of resources on things like monuments, etc... which is something that a lot of societies (if not virtually all) do.

Could you explain further?  I'm interested either way, i'm just desiring detail :)

[Kuma]

Now I'm even more curious, though I'm a little hazy on how this is narrative.  When I read this part of your post I thought of the explicit allocation of resources on things like monuments, etc... which is something that a lot of societies (if not virtually all) do.

Could you explain further?  I'm interested either way, i'm just desiring detail :)

Actually, I epiphed on the way home, and I have the scrawled bus-notes to prove it.  I'll post the thing tomorrow, as I'm waaaay too tired to do it tonight.

Suffice it to say, I think I've got something interesting ... and spun off quite a bit more from Elsewhere

[Ferry Bazelmans]

Kuma, I would love to play a game like this. I was sorely disappointed in the Simcity CCG since it failed to capture the feel that made the PC game so damn addictive. A "roleplaying" variant would be very interesting (and adaptable to turn-based online play?).

Fer (Crayne)

[contracycle]

This partly by way of a bump, but also a real question.  Both here and RPG net produced a "yes please" from a number of people.  I've tinkered with plans like this myself, and yet there always seems to be one problem: the scale is so large as to be impersonal.

How do we retain close personal identification while simultaneously keeping an eye on large-scale factors?  Do we require ALL players to be engaged in the large economic activities?How do we prevent play breaking down into a group of 1-on-1 microgames?

Essentially, can we develop an idea of what actual play would look like for which a mechanic may be deisgned?  What does everyone think would work as a mode of actual play - what interactions would you expect to see at the table?

[Kuma]

How do we retain close personal identification while simultaneously keeping an eye on large-scale factors?  Do we require ALL players to be engaged in the large economic activities?How do we prevent play breaking down into a group of 1-on-1 microgames?

I'm not 100% sure about all of your terminology (mainly what the 1:1 microgames you're refering to are), but here's my take on it:

Elsewhere was originally conceived of as a GMs tool for managing their campaign worlds (and doing things like develop histories) in a coherent fashion.  Only about halfway through did I get the hankering to actually *play* Elsewhere as a game in and of itself.

While there is a lot of play and concentration in the rules on the non-roleplaying aspects of the game, there are certainly roleplay possibilities in even the largest-scale games.  Meetings between two sovereigns, their forces poised for imminent battle ... a confrontation between two master spies who happen into the same town on the same turn.  

Elewhere, like any other RPG, takes a certain amount of "looking past the numbers", and with the ability to move from the national to the personal scale with the flip of a switch (well, almost) - the players should definitely take the opportunities created by the large-scale forces to take a look at particularly interesting parts of history.  An Exploration action taken by a nation could be scaled-down and taken as an old-fashioned naval adventure with a ship full of interesting characters, whose actions then enter into the greater scheme of history.

Essentially, can we develop an idea of what actual play would look like for which a mechanic may be deisgned?  What does everyone think would work as a mode of actual play - what interactions would you expect to see at the table?

Well, yes.  :)  

Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt.  (Hint: Think Birthright only with infinite possibilities and the granularity of your choice.)

Just haven't pumped out the PDF yet.  (BTW: Also working on the Narrative system outline ... I should have a document by Sunday at the latest.)

[Andy Kitkowski]

I've done some economic consulting with the same small firm that Steffan O'Sullivan (FUDGE) works for- Basically an economic model game, where the "chits" in the game can represent anything: Manufactured toys, drugs, soldiers, "resources", etc etc.  It was a simple but deep game, and could be tailored to just about anything.

In short, I'd love to make it into the mechanics of an economic-themed RPG. But I'd get sued, and I also just don't want to step on toes.

But your proposition sounds great!  I can't wait to see it.  And if you're looking for any advice on this kind of engine, let me know. (PM me)

-Andy