Indie RPG Awards?

[M. J. Young]

Defining independent?

This guy had an idea for a game; but he didn't really have the skills to write it, no matter how good he was at running it. He worked with a bunch of friends, playing and running it, trying to refine it, but couldn't get it to paper. In many ways, the idea was nebulous.

He met another guy who was a decent writer and a whiz at mechanics, and they collaborated on the text. The guy with the original idea wrote some of it, the mechanics whiz rewrote, made things work, added ideas to fill holes, and ultimately completed the text.

Neither guy had any money; but the mechanics whiz new a little about business stuff, and they agreed to create a company to publish the game. They found backers, people willing to invest, and so incorporated. Between them they kept more than 50% of the stock, so they have control of the company; but they also have obligations to stockholders, legally binding by-laws, and a director structure that prevents them from running things however they want. One of them is very active in helping to run the company, but has never felt comfortable being "the boss" and so has always let someone who is not one of the game creators but has some business sense take that job; the other prefers not to be involved at all. They own the copyright on the rules; it is licensed to the corporation. The corporation is allowed to create and publish supplemental material, with two stipulations: 1) no material may be published without the approval of one of the two game creators and 2) if the license is breached, all rights in all supplements go to the game creators.a

Now, is that an indie game, or not?  Legally, ownership and control of the game is with the creators.  Yet there are a lot of people who have an interest in the game. The company (yes, this is a real company) has about twenty-five stockholders, most of whom are family or friends of the creators and all of whom put up either time or money (or both) to make it a reality. We could not have brought it to press without their help; and we would not have felt comfortable trying to involve them without the protection against liability afforded by the corporate structure.

You're going to have to make these decisions; it's best if you make them up front with a clearly stated and reasonably acceptable definition.

What about the judges?

I had an odd thought about this. I'm inclined to think of the way the electoral college was supposed to work.

People could still nominate games; the nominations process would, in a way, reduce the work--you wouldn't have to read every published independent game, just those which someone thought worth nominating.

But you would have to get a list of volunteers, people who would be willing to judge the games, names who were recognized at least from forums and similar interaction on the Internet. Then let the voters pick which people they trust to judge.

Maybe it's not workable; maybe you can't get enough qualified judges. But it avoids the twin horns of popularity contest voting on the one hand and Secret Cabal conspiracy theory on the other.

--M. J. Young

[Marco]

Hey!

Wassamatter with free RPG's!? JAGS (about which I have no illusions about ever winning such an award) will go toe-to-toe with anyone in terms of work put into it. Our decision to be free was based on removing barriers to entry to the system--not on our feelings about its quality or viability as a for-sale RPG.

How about this: set the entry standards based on page count (judges can rule against filler pages pretty easily). Set the minumum point at, oh, say 800+ pages of material (backgrounds, rules, etc.). That'll solve your "2-page RPG's wanting a vote" problem real quick.

That makes about as much sense as neglecting free RPG's.

-Marco

[Andy Kitkowski]

As for Mr. Young's definition, I think that we need not go that far.  I mean, I'm sure that such moral conundrums will hit us in the future, but most folks I see publishing their games end up writing it and publishing it themselves, or writing it themselves and publishing through someone else.  The idea of "I've got a great idea- I need someone else to write it, though, cause I can't write" is precisely how companies like WOTC and other freelancer-using companies operate.  In other words, I think that the limit of "self-published" will easily divide 95% of the games- that last 5% will be divided on a case-by-case basis.  It's not gonna be easy, but it WILL be much easier than writing a 15 page definition of Indie Game with multiple exclusions and definitions for the purpose of just awarding a sh*tty shot glass.  

Wassamatter with free RPG's!?

Absolutely nothing. One of my personal favorites was the d6-based "Into the Shadows".

Our decision to be free was based on removing barriers to entry to the system--not on our feelings about its quality or viability as a for-sale RPG.

VERY excellent point, Marco.

Unfortunately, I want to draw short, easy lines that may harm a few people rather than relying on lists of qualifiers that go out of their way to limit a certain subclass. Because if I said "OK, the game must be 30 pages long", the next thing I know I'll have the author of SK8ER (a nice game for 2 pages, I might add) complaining about not being included, and so on.

So what I propose is to set aside roughly 1/4 or so of the most prominent categories (Best Game, Most Unique Concept, Best Layout, etc) and make a second subset: Best Free Game, Most Unique Concept for a Free Game, Best Layout in a Free Game, etc.  This way free games get to be recognized as well.

Hell, if it'd be ok, I just might ask you later to, for some section on the page, write a paragraph or two about how Free RPGs are Real RPGs, too.

I just want to recognize the "fact"(?) that published-for-pay RPGs generally, GENERALLY require more organization and rosource management than free games do. Heck, I'm sure JAGS (btw, I just went link hunting and all the links I found to the JAGS site were broken- Please PM me a link to your stuff) is better organized than many hardcopy published games. However, most free RPGs that I have seen are not.

Great free RPGs will obviously rise to the top of their classes, and have a good chance of winning in the FREE RPG categories.

But since I just realized that I also want to do this all as a plot to get more poeple aware of Indies RPGs, as well as used to the idea that Buying an Indie Game from Some Dude's Site (and not the hand of a known company) is NOT a Bad Idea, I think it would be in my best interests to keep most of the categories open to published, for-purchase RPGs.

-Andy

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Andy, I want to add one more notion for your stew ... which probably won't be desirable in its most extreme form, but might end up as an influence.

I'd have no categories.

One award, one criterion, one set of (probably flexible standards), one winner. Probably a whole lotta runners-up that can each get a promo paragraph ... but one winner.

As I say, this probably isn't going to fly, based on what you've posted so far. My hope is that it will cut down on the number of categories and ensure that the ones you keep are very, very well defined.

Best,
Ron

[Andy Kitkowski]

Hmmm, just because it's so far from what I was intending to do, I'll have to give that some thought.

However, I'm probably going to stick with a limited number of categories. Basically, I'm interested in things like Layout/Design, Concept, etc, and I'd love to see people get props for those categories.  I'm certainly not going to aim at creating enough categories so that "everyone gets a shot" ("Uh oh. Donjon hasn't won a prize yet.  Quick, new category: 'Best Indie RPG based off of old-school fantasy concepts'"), but I would like to see some other parts of the creation process, rather than just The Final Product, get honored.

Y'know, just like the Academy Awards honor Best Soundtrack, Best Costume Design, Best Gaffer (?), that sort of thing.

And I think the metaphor works, because just like the above categories, only people "in the business" will be interested in the above. The main category, the one that'll be going in with 24-point-font at the top of the page, and the one that will (Hopefully, Eench Allah) be attracting the most attention will be "Best Game" (and, possibly, "Best Free Game").

-Andy

[Jeremy Cole]

When having an internet voting system, is it easy is it to abuse?  I saw there was a low-rating TV show a while back, and it was later revealed that one women and a half dozen friends logged around 1/2 the total votes.  She of course won in a landslide.  If I want a little extra publicity, could I drown out the experts and public opinion?  I hope so, I might need all the hype I can get.

Also, how about seperating popular and critical awards?  Maybe you could have 'Most Popular', voted for by the common people, and 'Most Innovative', voted for by people who would know.


Jeremy

[Marco]

Hi Andy--the links should be working today (looks like we were down for a few hours).

1. I'd be happy to write about "Why Free RPG's are Real RPG's too." But um, the fact that you think this needs to be written is telling in and of itself. Especially for someone giving an award.

2. I'm going to ask (don't take this the wrong way) if your definition of "indie" means "alternative?" I was struck by someone's suggestion of a vote "by the masses" and a vote by "people who would know if something was innovative." If RPG.net is any relation to "the masses" I'd say that bunch is as good as *anyone* at determining if something is innovative. Maybe better since they don't have the meme that says innovative==better.

I don't think any of the voting body you'd pick would consider games like JAGS, Age of Heroes, Runebearer, Quest, Vanguard, or some other traditional style RPG's to be "innovative."  But I assure you as a creator of one, *we* do--or if not "innovative" at least "of excellent quality."

I think that the reason that a lot of rules-heavy sim games are free is that even with no cost-barreir there's a substantial investment of time to learn them--and to figure out if what the creator though was right was actually executed/implemented correctly.

So whether you mean it or not (and I assume not--but to a lot of people "indie" *does* mean *alternative*) your cut will happen to exclude the class of indie RPG's that *doesn't* get that "alternative" buzz.

Think about it.

-Marco

[Le Joueur]

I'd have no categories.

One award, one criterion, one set of (probably flexible standards), one winner. Probably a whole lotta runners-up that can each get a promo paragraph ... but one winner.

I have to agree with Ron here.  If you feel you need more credibility then tell everyone that you rely upon a 'secret group of judges.'  Then you could get an obscure artifact, perhaps made of clear plastic (make sure it isn't too attractive), and give it out only for a year.  Call the runners-up simply 'nominees.'

Nah, that'd only work in Britain....

Dang Langford

[Andy Kitkowski]

Hi Andy--the links should be working today (looks like we were down for a few hours).

Saw it, Marco.  Personally, it's not my cup 'o tea, but WOW. That's PHENOMENAL work and an absolutely gorgeous layout. More on that elsewhere (keep up the great work!)

1. I'd be happy to write about "Why Free RPG's are Real RPG's too." But um, the fact that you think this needs to be written is telling in and of itself. Especially for someone giving an award.

Very true.  Thing is, I think I'm going to stick to the published-for-money as the core of the award. But I'd still like to include something for the exceptional free RPGs out there.  I figure a small article would be a great piece for the site outside the scope of the awards.

2. I'm going to ask (don't take this the wrong way) if your definition of "indie" means "alternative?"

No offense at all, actually. While many indies RPGs (most off all of them here, too) are "alternative" ("I've replaced all attributes and skills with a combination color wheel/emotion-based system"), MY definition isn't so.  For me, if someone tried to remake, say, Space Master- No real direction in the game/setting other than "comprehensive" and "realism"- and published it themself, then it'd be an Indie RPG.

(personally, my interests lie somewhere between "mainstream" and "alternative")

I don't think any of the voting body you'd pick would consider games like JAGS, Age of Heroes, Runebearer, Quest, Vanguard, or some other traditional style RPG's to be "innovative."

Hmmm. Innovation, while nice, doesn't necisserily define an RPG.
Also, all the games you mention are, if I'm not mistaken (and I might be), both:
1) Crunchy
2) Free

If they weren't free, and my little award was running the year they were released, I'd say they'd have just as high a shot at an award as the rest of the "alternative" and "froofroo" games.

In fact, to be honest, after skimming your PDFs I think JAGS has the best design layout (aesthetically and functionally) of any game I've seen recently, published or not. You've done an incredible job with it. If there were such a category for Indies layout, and an award given the year of the release of JAGS, I can't possibly see how your game couldn't get it.

It's a hard decision. I'm weighing a ton of factors in the Free/Not Free debate for what's included in the core awards.

I hope that, if I do go for the Free/Not Free distinction, that I'm not villified for "excluding crunchy games".  Actually, I'm pretty sure I would be, and I'm pretty sure I know who I'd be villified by, but I digress (and he apparently doesn't come here anymore anyway).

On the other hand, I guess I should ask why all of the above supplements and games are free. You mentioned very valid reasons for keeping the games free, but I don't see how attaching a $2 Paypal price tag to some of your excellent supplements would hurt you (while keeping the core free).

In the end, the debate will probably come down to this:

*I will count, in the main awards, only pay-published games, because I can't see why people wouldn't want to make at least a single dollar off their product. Perhaps this is a shortsighted opinion.

*I (or the award) will be villified for rejecting all the classy free RPGs out there, because others can't see why I would want to make a distiction between pay and free self-published RPGs. Perhaps this is a shortsighted opinion.

*The above are incommensurable.  But that won't stop the debates.

-Andy

(pardon my spelling in the above)

[Jeremy Cole]

I was struck by someone's suggestion of a vote "by the masses" and a vote by "people who would know if something was innovative." If RPG.net is any relation to "the masses" I'd say that bunch is as good as *anyone* at determining if something is innovative. Maybe better since they don't have the meme that says innovative==better.

The point would be that the award is not given for 'best', but given for most innovative, a different thing, hence the different name.

Innovative means orginal, and I was thinking about an award given by game designers for the game they felt had the greatest original merit, a game they believe will have the most influence on their own future design plans.  They would know, because its their game designs that will be affected.  

When I said masses, I meant nothing derogatory, at this point in time I am part of the masses.

Jeremy

[Jonathan Walton]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to chime in with the others about having a single award.  Or, if you really want to give more, NO MORE THAN THREE main categories.

The problem with starting a new award is that nobody is going to have heard of it.  If there's suddenly an award called the "Andy" and every other indie game seems to have recieved an "Andy" of some kind, people will start to discount them as meaningless or not very valuble as a mark of quality.  However, if you only give out 1 or 2 "Andys" a year, if I go and pick up those games, I'm pretty much guaranteed to be impressed by them and will likely take the time to look at "Andy-winning" games in the future.

This may be a more bare-bones practical reason, but still one that has merit, I believe.

Later.
Jonathan

[Marco]

I think I have one last thought on this topic.

The JAGS site (the web page) was designed by our Editor In Chief. We're very proud of the look and feel, of the operational standards, and of the back-end custom designed content management system. If there were awards for Indie RPG web-sites we'd be proud to enter ours.

It runs on Linux, possibly the world's best server-side operating system. Linux is free.

It uses a technology called Java. Java is currently considered one of the finest choices for server-side code. It was created by Sun Microsystems. Java is free.

The JAGS site runs the Jakarta Tomcat as the JSP engine, an award wining server that is used extensively world-wide. Tomcat is licensed under the open-source agreement. Tomcat is free.

It is driven off the PostgreSQL database--using triggers, referential integretity, and other aspects of data-driven design whcih require a fully featured well designed database. PostgreSQL is free.

The JIVE forums use the JIVE Engine. The Chat system runs the NFS applet--one that has the capability to massively cluster across a JMS implementaiton should we ever need to. Both of these are well featured (we need to get the HTML filter for the messsage boards working ... but still). Both of them are free.

The HTML (Web-Server) is Apache--one of, if not *the* most widely used web-server in the world. Apache is free.

We have many gigabytes of downloads in the year and change we've been available. We are able to track our European distribution using the excellent tool suite Webalizer. Webalizer is free.

Feel free to to give your award to pay-only games. It's your award after all. But take a moment to consider if you're really doing a service to indie-designers in doing so.

-Marco

[Andy Kitkowski]

If there's suddenly an award called the "Andy" and every other indie game seems to have recieved an "Andy" of some kind, people will start to discount them as meaningless or not very valuble as a mark of quality.

Very good point.  There's that car award, always mentioned in commercials, that's like given out to every car company that pays them: They keep adding categories/classes until "everyone wins" ("Our SUV won 'Best 2ton+ four-door with a V-8 that also comes in purple'").

I was hoping to toss out some sort of award on things like Layout, Website, etc. Then again, if I did so, and this award actually comes to mean something, then I can say people saying, "Our Game Won Two Indy Awards!", when really all they were were awards for "Best Character Sheet" and "Most Agressive Marketing".  Maybe what I should do is focus on one, or at most two to three "Awards", and then make the rest of the awards into something that Aren't Called Awards, Yet Are In and Of Themselves Honors, then proper respect can be paid to the award.

-Andy

[Andrew Martin]

I think I have one last thought on this topic.

The JAGS site (the web page) was designed by our Editor In Chief. We're very proud of the look and feel, of the operational standards, and of the back-end custom designed content management system. If there were awards for Indie RPG web-sites we'd be proud to enter ours.

It runs on Linux, possibly the world's best server-side operating system. Linux is free.

It uses a technology called Java. Java is currently considered one of the finest choices for server-side code. It was created by Sun Microsystems. Java is free.

The JAGS site runs the Jakarta Tomcat as the JSP engine, an award wining server that is used extensively world-wide. Tomcat is licensed under the open-source agreement. Tomcat is free.

It is driven off the PostgreSQL database--using triggers, referential integretity, and other aspects of data-driven design whcih require a fully featured well designed database. PostgreSQL is free.

The JIVE forums use the JIVE Engine. The Chat system runs the NFS applet--one that has the capability to massively cluster across a JMS implementaiton should we ever need to. Both of these are well featured (we need to get the HTML filter for the messsage boards working ... but still). Both of them are free.

The HTML (Web-Server) is Apache--one of, if not *the* most widely used web-server in the world. Apache is free.

We have many gigabytes of downloads in the year and change we've been available. We are able to track our European distribution using the excellent tool suite Webalizer. Webalizer is free.

Feel free to to give your award to pay-only games. It's your award after all. But take a moment to consider if you're really doing a service to indie-designers in doing so.

-Marco

One solution would be to offer a version of JAGS for payment, this version being exactly the same as the free version. This then allows people who are impressed with JAGS, to offer the payment for it, and puts JAGS in the running. :)

I hope that helps!

[quozl]

Why is this being limited only to games that require an exchange of payment?  Would Sorcerer be of less quality if Ron won the lottery and decided to let everyone download Sorcerer for free?  What does the cost of the game have to do with quality?  I really don't understand the reasoning here.