Adventures for TROS

[Brian Leybourne]

Let's say that I created a character with Loyalty (King) and the philosophy of 'Everything in it's rightful place. If during the course of the campaign, the King repeatedly betrayed my character eventually leading to the death of family members and my character decides enough is enough and helps in a coup d'etat would you penalize me for not playing according to my philosophy and SAs?

IMO, there is nothing cooler in TROS as when a characters' SA's clash with each other (i.e. in this case you have passion: loyalty to the king, but you know that he's not a good man and maybe you have conscience, or passion: your family who are being killed off).

Nothing creates cool roleplaying opportunities than conflicting SA's. RUn with it, and see what happens. Regardless of the way the character swings andn what the outcome is, you wont be able to complain that you didn't have a cool time roleplaying it.

Brian.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Also, given those conflicting SA's, recognize that they can change very easily in the midst of play. Almost all of my favorite moments from playing TROS may be pinpointed at moments in which a character (for instance) throws aside his Faith by spending it to 0, spends his Luck to 0, and then changes the Faith into (say) hatred for someone. Or vice versa.

Best,
Ron

[Bob Richter]

Holt you may wish to revisit the rules for changing SAs a bit.

As I recall its as simple as spending it down to 0 and then in between sessions writing a new one.

Ok, it reads as follows (pg 66)...

'Should a player ever change the focus of a Spiritual Attribute (such as a change in religion, lovers, or ideals) that Attribute and any one other Spiritual Attribute must be dropped to zero and the focus re-written. It may then progress as normal. An even rarer and more dramatic event is when a Spiritual Attribute changes entirely (e.g. replacing "Destiny" with a "Passion"). This is only possible if (1) the seneschal approves it and if (2) 10 Spirit Points (explained below) are spent to facilitate the change over. Whatever happens one's Spiritual Attributes should always be compatible with one's Philosophy, as set forth during character creation.'

This is hardly as simple as you said...nor is it, I admit, vague. However, I do have a problem with a couple of points...

Why should my (for example) Passion for my wife drop to zero just because I change my religion (it may well be that she is the reason it changed)?

Also, are we to assume that characters in TRoS are not supposed to change after character creation?...Take William Wallace from the movie Braveheart, his starting philosophy would probably be something like 'live and let live'. Owing to tragic events in his life, his philosophy changed to something darker. He probably started with Love (Murran) and this would have changed to Hate (English)...now obviously this would not fit with his original philosophy.

I'm sorry, I can't see a reason to justify the high cost of changing a character's SAs. Characters are supposed to grow throughout a campaign not stay the same...if they are not changed by the events that unfold around them, or that happen to them...something is seriously wrong.

One more thing...more of a question really...

Let's say that I created a character with Loyalty (King) and the philosophy of 'Everything in it's rightful place. If during the course of the campaign, the King repeatedly betrayed my character eventually leading to the death of family members and my character decides enough is enough and helps in a coup d'etat would you penalize me for not playing according to my philosophy and SAs?

Regards

-Holt

As is being discussed on the other thread regarding SAs, it seems to me that the number of points in your Passion SA doesn't reflect the magnitude of that passion, only the narrative effect of it.

Personally, I generally drop my luck if I want to change another SA over.

Your philosophy may be written down on your character sheet, but it's not a stat. There are no rules regarding changing it. I'd recommend you change it whenever it seems appropriate. Perhaps any time you change an SA.

As to the scenario you present, that's certainly going to test and try your loyalty, but if you don't change the SA, I'll penalyze you for not upholding it, yes.

[Holt]

As to the scenario you present, that's certainly going to test and try your loyalty, but if you don't change the SA, I'll penalyze you for not upholding it, yes.

That's fair enough, and I would do the same.

The point that I was really trying to make though (perhaps badly) was that in order to change my SA (going by the rules) I would have to pay 10 spirit points to do it, thus I would be being penalized...wouldn't I?

Regards

-Holt

[Jake Norwood]

Wow, another really cool SA thread.

The 10-point change-over cost is high, and mostly exists to prevent really random change overs or situations where a cool conflict (ie: Lancelot, Arthur, Gwenevere) comes in. It's preventing an "easy way out." I would actually strongly support a global SA re-work between stories (should have put that in the book, yeah...).

The other change--from Passion:love so-and-so to Passion:hate such-and-such is intentionally easy because it's perversions of one emotion or motive that make another so cool.

Finally, check my post on the other SA thread.

Jake

ps. If your group doesn't need the extra limitations on SA changing, then ditch them.

[hyphz]

Well.. you have to bear in mind here that the players I'm working with are normally die hard hack-n-slay gamists, and that one of the main reasons I got into TROS in the first place was as a way of introducing alternate styles.  On one hand, once I explained the point of SAs they got it immediately - the problem was explaining the mechanics ("how can I have 5 slots when I only have 4 points?"); on the other hand, the SAs I have represent a bit of a problem, as one person has basically taken Generic Paladin SAs, and the other player has made an evil character (he took the Destiny "Destroy The World" (!!!)).  

Of course, the most obvious solution to this is to actually base the game on the two opposing each other.  Can this type of thing actually work or does it lead to fallout, especially in this "introducing new type" style?

(The evil character player also asked how to do a D&D style Fireball in the TROS magic system.  At the moment it seems to be that the best way would be something like:  Spell of Three - Affects Incorporeal, LOS Range, Effects are Glamour (red beam coming from character), Sculpture (Turn air into natural gas), Sculpture (Ignite the natural gas).  Of course, this is a lot bigger and scarier than a D&D Fireball, but it has more of a penalty for abusing it too...  But I'm not sure if this is right, especially the "turn air into..." business (which seems like an all-too-easily exploitable fudge around the rule that matter is conserved even by magic))

[Jake Norwood]

Well.. you have to bear in mind here that the players I'm working with are normally die hard hack-n-slay gamists, and that one of the main reasons I got into TROS in the first place was as a way of introducing alternate styles.  On one hand, once I explained the point of SAs they got it immediately - the problem was explaining the mechanics ("how can I have 5 slots when I only have 4 points?"); on the other hand, the SAs I have represent a bit of a problem, as one person has basically taken Generic Paladin SAs, and the other player has made an evil character (he took the Destiny "Destroy The World" (!!!)).  

Of course, the most obvious solution to this is to actually base the game on the two opposing each other.  Can this type of thing actually work or does it lead to fallout, especially in this "introducing new type" style?

Sounds like fun. Really. Don't worry about their "gamist" tendencies. Just reward them often for their SAs and let them change them for free or often early in the campaign so that they get comfortable with them. Don't tell them it's a "story thing" or anything else--just let them get off on the power that comes from pushing the SAs forward. This group, more than others, *really* needs games tailored to their SAs.

As for "4 points and 5 slots" tell them that they range from 0-5, not 1-5, and that the SA slots are more like bottles than beer. Their actions will refuel them, and the drink 'em when the need 'em.

Pitting the 2 players against each other, huh...are there only 2 in your group? It could be a great story, but I don't know your guys, so it may or may not gel with them. If you/they aren't ready for that kind of a campaign then have them rework their SAs together, as the book suggests. Group SA creation is a MUST. If they like the idea of competing then their SAs are really going to shine and they'll get all the gamism they want, I think. Plus it could be a fun story (except that I don't imagine they'll be side-by-side very often, which may slow play depending on your styles).

(The evil character player also asked how to do a D&D style Fireball in the TROS magic system.  At the moment it seems to be that the best way would be something like:  Spell of Three - Affects Incorporeal, LOS Range, Effects are Glamour (red beam coming from character), Sculpture (Turn air into natural gas), Sculpture (Ignite the natural gas).  Of course, this is a lot bigger and scarier than a D&D Fireball, but it has more of a penalty for abusing it too...  But I'm not sure if this is right, especially the "turn air into..." business (which seems like an all-too-easily exploitable fudge around the rule that matter is conserved even by magic))

This has been addresed many times on the forum. Do a search in the TROS forum for "fireball" and read some of the versions. Alternatively, try to get them to think more evil than "fireball." They'll get into it, I promise.

Jake

[Brian Leybourne]

(The evil character player also asked how to do a D&D style Fireball in the TROS magic system.  At the moment it seems to be that the best way would be something like:  Spell of Three - Affects Incorporeal, LOS Range, Effects are Glamour (red beam coming from character), Sculpture (Turn air into natural gas), Sculpture (Ignite the natural gas).  Of course, this is a lot bigger and scarier than a D&D Fireball, but it has more of a penalty for abusing it too...  But I'm not sure if this is right, especially the "turn air into..." business (which seems like an all-too-easily exploitable fudge around the rule that matter is conserved even by magic))

For the record, I would make that sculpture 3 (because you're manipulating at the atomic level, changing atoms basically), and I would add Vision 3 to be able to see the atoms to change them, but really, you can do FAR cooler things with TROS magic than fireballs, and probably with a lower TN.

Once your player gets the hang of the system, he'll leave fireballs, lightning bolts and magic missiles behind, and start to see what the REAL power of the TROS magic system is; limitless power... at a cost.

He'll get there, don't wory.

Brian.

[Bob Richter]

Of course, the most obvious solution to this is to actually base the game on the two opposing each other.  Can this type of thing actually work or does it lead to fallout, especially in this "introducing new type" style?

(The evil character player also asked how to do a D&D style Fireball in the TROS magic system.  At the moment it seems to be that the best way would be something like:  Spell of Three - Affects Incorporeal, LOS Range, Effects are Glamour (red beam coming from character), Sculpture (Turn air into natural gas), Sculpture (Ignite the natural gas).  Of course, this is a lot bigger and scarier than a D&D Fireball, but it has more of a penalty for abusing it too...  But I'm not sure if this is right, especially the "turn air into..." business (which seems like an all-too-easily exploitable fudge around the rule that matter is conserved even by magic))

Characters can oppose each other, and it can be fun. Kinda have to play it by ear. For some it works, for others, not. But it's as good a source of conflict (that is, plot) as any.

On fireballs:

The level 3 movement vagary is the most destructive force in the tRoS universe. Depending on your interpretation, it can even destroy said universe without missing a beat. That said, Weyrth's atmosphere is assumed to be much like our own, which is composed of some 70% diatomic nitrogen, which burns explosively, if not readily.

"Temperature" just means "the average speed of particles in a given volume." So you need things hotter. Speed up the particles. Get it hot enough, nitrogen explodes, fireball. Even hotter, and you have a universe-annihilating plasma-ball.

And the worst thing is that it's a Spell of One.

If you want to destroy, it's probably movement. If you want to create, it's probably sculpture. Unless you want to go about being inefficient about things.