Fantasy and Firearms

[Sylus Thane]

I'm curious what peoples opinions are about the inclusion of firearms into a fantasy setting. In the fantasy world I am developing right now I have limited firearm ability in the form of simple flintlocks. I'm wondering if anyone has tried this before and to what effect? the guns themselves would relatively rare and expensive.

Sylus

[ADGConscience]

I can't offer play experience so much as precedent. Firearms have been present in the Warhammer Fantasy RPG, and in the cool D20 setting of Privateer Press, in which (I believe) gunpowder is partly alchemically-based.

Dave

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

This has been done many times, actually, dating all the way back to Tunnels & Trolls in the late 70s, and including games like Lace & Steel. The most recent example is Arrowflight, from Deep 7, which is a high-fantasy setting with flintlocks and other early-modern firearms.

Best,
Ron

[Bankuei]

Sylus, I've always wondered what the big "issue" was with this question.  I've seen it pop up way too many times in the past, and I never understood what the concern was in incorporating firearms into fantasy.

Is it a concern about losing the fantasy feel, player's going John Woo on the manticore, or creating a scenario where swords and melee become obsolete?  It seems to be a major concern for a lot of folks, but I can't really see what the big ooh-ahh is.

Chris

[Sylus Thane]

Sylus, I've always wondered what the big "issue" was with this question. I've seen it pop up way too many times in the past, and I never understood what the concern was in incorporating firearms into fantasy.

Is it a concern about losing the fantasy feel, player's going John Woo on the manticore, or creating a scenario where swords and melee become obsolete? It seems to be a major concern for a lot of folks, but I can't really see what the big ooh-ahh is.

Chris

I totally agree. I guess mainly I was wondering if anyone had run into any major problems with it. personally I think limited firearms mixed with magic is pretty damn cool.

Sylus

[Sylus Thane]

Plus personally, I think Joel Rosenberg combined the two the best in the Guardians of the Flame series. Of course that may be the greatest fanatsy setting of all time too IMnotsoHO.

Sylus

[b_bankhead]

Sylus, I've always wondered what the big "issue" was with this question.  I've seen it pop up way too many times in the past, and I never understood what the concern was in incorporating firearms into fantasy.

   The rpg crowd is addicted to midieval imagery. Throw in guns and cannon and much of the tactical furniture of that world goes out the window.

  By the way how does anybody make D&D work with firearms?  Armor classes are based on performance against primitive melee weapons.  The reason that they stopped wearing armor was that it wasnt any good against firearms.

[greyorm]

Barbara Hambly's books also often include primitive firearms alongside magic, swords and other fantasy fare. They're quite good, too (at least I recall liking them quite a bit).

By the way how does anybody make D&D work with firearms?  Armor classes are based on performance against primitive melee weapons.  The reason that they stopped wearing armor was that it wasnt any good against firearms.

It's fantasy. Dragons can't really exist, either, nor would armor be particularly effective against them (not to mention dragons actually flying).

Again, it is fantasy...it usually doesn't follow standard physics (look at armor in most games...absolutely nothing to do with effectiveness of a weapon against a particular armor, which is what it was all about realistically).

This is, perhaps, why fantasy-anime is so popular. No need to worry about the "realism" of those big, cartoony swords because it is easier to swallow and forget about in a cartoon.

[b_bankhead]

It's fantasy. Dragons can't really exist, either, nor would armor be particularly effective against them (not to mention dragons actually flying).

   Okay so what about modern era games using d20 like Call of Cthulhu,Spycraft , or d20 Modern. You'd expect at least fuzzy realism in a game in which firearms are one of the predominant weapons. CoC takes place in an environment that is mostly realistic and neither of the other two are 'fantasy' as such.

This is, perhaps, why fantasy-anime is so popular. No need to worry about the "realism" of those big, cartoony swords because it is easier to swallow and forget about in a cartoon.

   I remember quite a bit of grousing about the art in D&D3E, primarily because it resembled anime and 'Diablo' more than traditional pseudo-midievalism, despite the fact that D&D worlds are completely ahistorical. A LOT of the D&D crowd thinks fantasy=european middle ages, nonsense to be sure but there it is...

[Gwen]

I've found (from 7th Seas which was fantasy+firearms) the increased damage of a flintlock is compensated for the poor accuracy of them.

[b_bankhead]

I've found (from 7th Seas which was fantasy+firearms) the increased damage of a flintlock is compensated for the poor accuracy of them.

   Considering the all the frontiersmen who had no problem feeding themselves for months on end by hunting rabbits and squirrels with flintlocks I have trouble believing they were all that innacurate...particularly for man-sized targets with a practiced user.  One of the primary reasons for the ascendancy of firearms was that it was MUCH easier to produce a good shot with firearms (including flintlocks) than with bows....

[Sylus Thane]

I've found (from 7th Seas which was fantasy+firearms) the increased damage of a flintlock is compensated for the poor accuracy of them.

Just so you know, flintlocks are highly accurate, it was their predecessers that were iffy on their accuracy. Mostly due to the way they fired and the type of projectile and barrel used.


This does bring up an interesting question though. How can firearms cause a sword and sorcery setting to lose it's fantasy feel? Is it meant to stay purely swords and sorcery? All RPG's are a fantasy setting. None of the games we plan in unless set in an actual historical setting, time period, and follow it religiously are fantasy by design. This is a pretty interesting topic for debate. What defines something as fantasy? For me it would be anything or setting that went beyond or acted beyond what we know to be true.

What does everyone else think?

Sylus

[b_bankhead]

This is a pretty interesting topic for debate. What defines something as fantasy? For me it would be anything or setting that went beyond or acted beyond what we know to be true.

What does everyone else think?

Personally I agree  completely.  That is in fact my definition.  But for most of the RPG crowd 'fantasy' means its minor subgenre 'sword and sorcery', to the point that it has become essentially a synonym for that.  It seems like a kind of imprinting sets in and they can't pushe their minds much beyond that imagery.   I think this is one of the things holding RPGs back from general exceptance,the field's overwhelming saturation of one genre.
(Its certainly kept me out of the local gaming scene for some time...) Despite the success of Lord of the Rings (the best of the best of the best of the genre....) sword and sorcery is marginal as far as the public is concerned.

[Gwen]

Just so you know, flintlocks are highly accurate, it was their predecessers that were iffy on their accuracy. Mostly due to the way they fired and the type of projectile and barrel used.

I didn't say flintlocks are inaccurate.  I said that's how 7th seas kept it balanced.

I've found (from 7th Seas which was fantasy+firearms) the increased damage of a flintlock is compensated for the poor accuracy of them.

[Sylus Thane]

I didn't say flintlocks are inaccurate. I said that's how 7th seas kept it balanced.

Sorry Gwen, didn't know if you knew for sure or not. :)

Personally I agree completely. That is in fact my definition. But for most of the RPG crowd 'fantasy' means its minor subgenre 'sword and sorcery', to the point that it has become essentially a synonym for that. It seems like a kind of imprinting sets in and they can't pushe their minds much beyond that imagery. I think this is one of the things holding RPGs back from general exceptance,the field's overwhelming saturation of one genre.
(Its certainly kept me out of the local gaming scene for some time...) Despite the success of Lord of the Rings (the best of the best of the best of the genre....) sword and sorcery is marginal as far as the public is concerned.

I can't argue with this at all, wouldn't want to, so is there a way for us Indie designers to change the oversaturation, and make things better as a whole? I am currently working on my Fantasy setting called Dawn of the Magi where this could be a pretty hot debate. The premise is that magic had left the world for some time as people rejected it's seductions and moved on. Some great feats of progress were made but now magic has returned to seduce the world. The time of conquering lands with just a sword are at an end and the time of the magi has returned. I'm really curious how it will turn out having simle firearms included and what people think of it as a Fantasy setting.

Sylus