some questions about "Fantasy"

[Sylus Thane]

I have to admit, being described as "lame" stings a bit...I can suck it up, but you might want to try to avoid tagging in the future.

Sorry, there was no personal offense meant. :)

As well, to be perfectly honest, I find the "oh, its all subjective anyways, so we can't know and shouldn't discuss it" response to be anti-intellectual and definitely insulting to those who choose to study the non-objective sciences: philosophy, literature, psychology, art, etc.

Simply, it is rather like saying, "Not all scientists agree on X, so we can't listen to them about it!" Or "Not all dictionaries agree on the definition of this or that word, so the word is meaningless!" Right...then we go nowhere. But that's starting to drift off topic, so back on we go.

Once again no offense meant, when dealing with a subjective topic I feel it's usually best if everyone starts off agreeing to be able to disagree. :)

Also, I'm slightly confused as to your statement about elves and dwarves in fantasy, a statement made as though someone, somewhere is demanding that they exist in a work in order for that work to be considered high fantasy. Examining this thread, I cannot imagine it is anyone hereon making such a statement, so I wonder at the reason you are bringing it up?

I could see how that may be confusing, but if you look back at a lot of posts, not just in this thread, people make reference to traditional races and authors and such that can be used as models. Most of these use the "Traditional Races" such as elves and dwarves. The use of them has gotten to be so much that people in general begin to only associate them with the term of fantasy or high fantasy. Everytime someone mentions Tolkien it further reinstills the dependency that you should use the traditional races to be considered good fantasy. the release of the new movies does not help this either. Don't get me wrong, I love Tolkien, but his work isn't necessarily good for rpg fantasy markets as it instills (I feel) certain criteria on the populace in which fantasy rpg's become unfairly judged.

Hope this clarifies a little.

Sylus

[contracycle]

The use of them has gotten to be so much that people in general begin to only associate them with the term of fantasy or high fantasy. Everytime someone mentions Tolkien it further reinstills the dependency that you should use the traditional races to be considered good fantasy. the release of the new movies does not help this either. Don't get me

Well I'd have to say: only if your dominant experience of fantasy is the particularly self-referential world that is RP.  Anyone who's been reading fantasy fiction for a few years encounteres relatively few instances of orcs-n-elves, praise be.

And I think to say discussion of Tolkien reinforces the perception puts the cart before the horse; Tolkien is discussed to show that his work was specific, not generic.  the generic COPYING of Tolkien in RP is what has established the association, not the discussions indicating why Tolkien doesn;t translate as easily as people expect it to.

[greyorm]

Sorry, there was no personal offense meant. :)
...Once again no offense meant, when dealing with a subjective topic I feel it's usually best if everyone starts off agreeing to be able to disagree. :)

I understand, and no offense is really taken.  I do feel, though, that starting out agreeing to disagree makes all further discussion useless...after all, if we've already decided we aren't in agreement and are simply going to disagree, what use is further discussion?

I think we all realize that no one here really needs to be told "hey, we might disagree and that's ok" unless it becomes necessary to remind someone.  As a community, I've found we have a well-established tradition of actually listening to and discussing with one another instead of merely arguing, going round and round, back and forth.

As to the actual concern, I'm guessing I'm still somewhat confused as to your intention in asking for definitions, when you have them already.  Does any of what's been said work for you, according to your definition?  That is, does it help avoid the rubber-suit problem?  Or provide a springboard to make races -- old or new -- viable non-human entities?

not just in this thread, people make reference to traditional races and authors and such that can be used as models...Everytime someone mentions Tolkien it further reinstills the dependency that you should use the traditional races to be considered good fantasy.

Gareth (contracycle) nailed it for me, as to the most comprehensive response that could be given to that statement, so count this as a "I second that" in regards to his statements.