Gay culture / Gamer culture [Social Context]

[Ron Edwards]

Hi cruciel,

Chimin' in to say,
You wrote,
"I do not, however, think the comparison is useful for doing anything but granting some forge-goers insight into their psychology."

And that was the purpose of this thread. It was the only purpose of this thread, as well.

Best,
Ron

[Jason Lee]

Chimin' in to say,
You wrote,
"I do not, however, think the comparison is useful for doing anything but granting some forge-goers insight into their psychology."

And that was the purpose of this thread. It was the only purpose of this thread, as well.

You know, we've been over and over and over this...it ain't about what was compared to...that doesn't matter. Like Ron, I feel rather like the MC at an event where everyone is yelling but no one is listening.

Read the full thread -- scratch that, COMPREHEND the full thread and its purpose -- people, before leaping full bore into a "well, that's a bad comparison" spiel, because we've been down that road before and I think our answers stand on their own.

Ah, forgive me then, I suppose I read too much into the thread.  As I read through it I got the impression people were attempting to draw upon the methods the gay culture used to gain acceptance, and apply those methods to gaming.

I was attempting to debunk this notion by pointing out that hate and apathy require different tools to fight - not trying to deny the behavior similarities between closet gays and gamers.

[greyorm]

attempting to draw upon the methods the gay culture used to gain acceptance, and apply those methods to gaming.

I was attempting to debunk this notion by pointing out that hate and apathy require different tools to fight

Ah! When you phrase it that way, I take an entirely different idea home with me than I did previously. In this case, I can definitely see your point about hate and apathy being different beasts and why they must be dealt with differently.

But why "apathy" (to not care or have no opinion of)? To my mind, I wish folks were apathetic to gaming as a hobby...rather like they're apathetic to card games, bowling, basketball and so forth as hobbies.

As well, suppose that it is a combination of hate and apathy...how do we deal with the issues raised herein: do you think being proud of our hobby (and I'm not talking marching down the street or walking up to everyone you know and saying, "HEY! I'm a ROLE-PLAYER! Boo-yah!" kind-of-proud) will help correct misperceptions and increase the interest of others and how?

[Clay]

I can bear witness to the fact that having pride in the fact that you role-play can be beneficial, and help to offset some of the negative stereotypes.

In my business I create web sites.  One of the sites that I have created is the site for Sorcerer.  Near the start of the year I was approached by a Pentacostal church about making a web site for them (http://www.otisvilleaog.org), not because they had seen my work but because they knew that I did something with web pages.

When I was intially discussing their needs, I showed some of my work to my contact.  One of them was the Sorcerer site.  He nearly lost his cool and cut things off right there, since Sorcerer is pretty much everything that fundamentalist Christian activists ever feared about rpgs.

What saved it?  First some frank discussion about what went on in roleplaying sessions, and that the game was about the moral tradeoffs of a quest for power, and how the individual dealt with them. I also make no bones about the fact that I am a practicing Christian, although I don't wear my faith on my sleeve (i'm distinctly not a Pentacostal).  

The result?  By identifying the ways in which we were alike, and not cringing when my  dirty little secret got out, I was able to overcome the objection.  This contract accounts for roughly 50% of my business income for this year.  

This wouldn't have worked in every situation.  With a different person, or if I wasn't a practicing Christian, it could have blown up in my face. But in this case, it worked.

[Jason Lee]

But why "apathy" (to not care or have no opinion of)? To my mind, I wish folks were apathetic to gaming as a hobby...rather like they're apathetic to card games, bowling, basketball and so forth as hobbies.

As well, suppose that it is a combination of hate and apathy...how do we deal with the issues raised herein: do you think being proud of our hobby (and I'm not talking marching down the street or walking up to everyone you know and saying, "HEY! I'm a ROLE-PLAYER! Boo-yah!" kind-of-proud) will help correct misperceptions and increase the interest of others and how?

Well, this thread made me think a little bit about the general opinion the populace has of gaming.  There are obviously those who hate gaming (as I'm given the impression you, and others, can personally attest to) - and they have to be dealt with in an appropriate fashion.  However, I'm beginning to think that the gaming-haters are maginal and my perception of their mass may simply be a left-over from earlier decades - a bit of being out of touch with the upcoming generation.  Maybe all those people who you have any chance of getting interested in gaming (kids with magic cards, teenager who like the "lord of the rings" movies, etc) aren't adverse to gaming at all - roleplaying or the people who roleplay probably just don't interest them, or they haven't been sold on the idea effectively.

I do agree self esteem good.  I'm just not convinced getting the hate-mongers out of their o'-so-comforting hate is as related to recuiting new gamers as we would like to believe.  I've just met a lot of proud golfers, and I still don't care about golfing.

[contracycle]

Do people get kicked out of the military for saying they like to play role playing games?

In certain places, quite possibly "yes".  I have a police record as a suspected Satanist on the basis of founding a highschool RPG club.  This should be seen in the context of a national "satanic abductions" scare and persistent rumours that you shouldn't let your cat out of the house on Walpurgisnacht.  Discovering this detail some years after the fact was rather chilling, as it really could have been a serious career impediment, and in principle might still be.  I take your general point, but in certain times and places, RPG can be seen as a deadly threat to human life and immortal souls, and in that context it remains a very sub rosa activity.

[b_bankhead]

The result?  By identifying the ways in which we were alike, and not cringing when my  dirty little secret got out, I was able to overcome the objection.  This contract accounts for roughly 50% of my business income for this year.  

This wouldn't have worked in every situation.  With a different person, or if I wasn't a practicing Christian, it could have blown up in my face. But in this case, it worked.

 It's NEVER worked for me because i'm not religious.  You see it's impossible for me to talk to these people because they all know more about rpgs than I do!

 No really, I have been into rpgs since 1977, played them, reworked,debated them,read rpg magazines, chatted them up over the internet, yet it doesn't matter.  The only thing any christian needs to do to know the REAL TRUTH behind rpgs is is to read ONE stupid pamphlet or see one stupid bouffanted 'occult expert'  on the 700 club to become more knowledgeable on rpgs than could ever hope to be.

 And of course the very fact that I have been involved with them so long actually works against me, of course I must be so demon possessed that I'm part of the conspiracy!

  As a former fundamentalist I have an appreciation for how such thought processes develop. Christian fundamentalism REQUIRES an external cosmic evil to set THEMSELVES apart from. After all if practically everything outside the church ISN'T on the devil's mailing list how do you know YOU are saved? And of course if you can discern the evil in something everyone else considers innocuous that shows your superior spiritual acumen (thats why we get Teletubbies who are fronting for the 'gay agenda').

  What we are facing with this bunch is that their ideas are for the most part not based on any contact with the actual games at all.  After all if the pamphlet has the real story why actually read an rpg book? Particularly since reading it makes you vulnerable to (cue reverb) SATANIC ATTACK.   Literally the ONLY source of information they have is propaganda, nothing else penetrates. And the propaganda fills powerfull psychological needs.

  As a consequence I have my doubts if it is EVER worth the trouble for anyone but the small community of christian gamers to try to communicate with this bunch.  But they are so small I don't think they can accomplish much.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi b_bankhead,

No one is suggesting some kind of "convince the unbelievers" approach to people who might really really loathe the hobby (or anything, for that matter). Clay has provided an excellent example of dealing with kneejerk reactions from an otherwise-reasonable person, or group. This is important - if you, for instance, react to someone else's instant-reaction as a full and complete expression of their views or potential views, nothing good will occur.

The religious or not-religious aspect of the current instance is irrelevant. We're talking about dealing with anyone who delivers a snap-judgment response, and I'm saying that the imperative obligation of the mature human being is to avoid providing a snap-judgment re-action to this. If the other person ain't gonna budge, fine, but apparently, and this goes for my experience as well, lots and lots of people will.

Best,
Ron

[Manu]

Personnally, when it comes to strangers, I'd rather (and already have) disclose my most intimate sexual fantasy than confess i play RPGs; it's just not worth the hassle in my experience. Even though in France 50% of the population is atheist, they at best think it's childish. I remember vividly when I was younger, how difficult it was to convey to an even neutral person, the type of playing I favored (which for me matters as much as the type of game you play) - the early 80s tendency towards gamist play bears the stigma of being truely seen as a game, which is so decried in our society obsessed by work over leisure.; then, expressing the pleasure of incarnating a character, of exploring a world which seemed at times as detailed as the real one, this usually resulted in misperception - "oh, it's like theater !" "you mean you write movie scripts?", etc...Maybe i am lazy, but I'd rather avoid having to explain how deep an experience it is for me. Nowadays, I usually say I collect old boardgames, which is seen as a bit odd, but not frowned upon. And this serves to explain why books and boxes fill up an entire room at home.

Most of my girlfriends have learned my fantasies, only a couple know of my gaming.

Oddly enough, I've already told my shrink I was a gamer, and why I was one, but haven't told him about my bisexual experiences. But when push comes to shove, I'd do the opposite for anyone else.

[Mike Holmes]

Hey Manu, I know what you mean. It's nice to have a very short and succinct means of getting across to people that it's an adult activity. So, I've created such a means. I've stated this around here before, and I will do so again. But it may be slightly controversial, as it's actually quite disengnuous. That said, I personally believe in lying if it's for a good cause.

What I do when telling people what RPGs are is to say the following: "Have you heard of D&D?" {Wait for the, consistent afirmative response}

"Well, it's like that but for adults."

You'd be amazed at how well this works. If it becomes important, you can clarify later that D&D is an RPG, just one that has gotten a bad rap over the years. But until then, it really helps to dissociate the behavior of RPGs with peoples' assumtions about it. You are then free to describe it to them in what is, more likely, an open-minded situation.

It is problematic that it's really a disservice to D&D. But it's worthwhile in the short run, and can be corrected in the long run as neccessary.

Now, using this technique and then further explaining may still get a number of responses like Manu has gotten in the long run. To those I often say:

"Do you watch movies and TV? The escapism of RPGs is like that, but less passive. It's interactive."

That's a hip buzzword that works. In fact, if I were to advocate a change in teh term RPG, I'd call it Environmentally Interactive Entertainment Media. Or something like that.

Mike

[Clay]

On the topic of dealing with irrational people and RPGs, I generally recommend letting the issue lie.  You won't change their mind, and you'll likely add fuel to their fire.  This is the approach that I take with my sister in law, who hasn't been accused of being rational since I've known her.  

When I presented my step son with a copy of the D&D player's handbook, I was accused of introducing him to satanism.  I let the issue slide, since she was clearly not in a rational mood that day, and I had already been informed that my particular brand of Christianity (a mainstream protestant church) wasn't really Christianity.  I had ground to challenge, since I had been to mass in her own church (Roman Catholic) more recently and more frequently than her, but it just wasn't worth it.

[Mike Holmes]

I had ground to challenge, since I had been to mass in her own church (Roman Catholic) more recently and more frequently than her, but it just wasn't worth it.

Musta been.

As if she'd been to church lately she might be aware that the Roman Catholic church doesn't condone belief in demons and the like. Basically, the church doesn't have an opinion on RPGs, and I've never personally seen a Catholic come out against them.

Heh, Jack Chick dislikes the RC Church as much as he does RPGs. :-)

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I believe it's time to spin off into different threads, folks. Remember, threads are not "open Usenet" on the Forge. If you change the subject, start a new thread. Thanks.

Best,
Ron