Re: What does role playing gaming accomplish?

[Clay]

This is going to sound crude to some of you, and I'm going to state up front that I'm more than a little "politically incorrect."

My own suggestion to help men make women feel more welcome in the group: get laid.  I notice that my interaction with all women is more relaxed when I'm getting some on at least a semi-regular basis. My gaming group (including one female member) has also noticed this (in fact they said that I was a whole lot more relaxed in general). This seems to eliminate any sexual tension within the group, which obviously can disrupt interactions.

This won't in itself get women into the group, but it will keep the women there from feeling uncomfortable.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

What Clay said.

Best,
Ron

[Ziriel]

First of all, I'm glad this thread has been reopened.  Thanks Clinton.
I heard a call for female input so here's my dos pesos...

given the perceived sexism in RPG's, and the gender imbalance that comes from that, how does the community reach out to females more effectively?

This iz going to sound horribly pessimistic, but here it goes...  I'm not sure that this can be accomplished in any way other than the one on one socialization that has already been brought up.  I think the problem will dissolve in time, or at least lessen.  The root of the problem, if I may be so bold, does not stem from the actual RPGs or gamers.  In my opinion it stems from the way our society iz taught to think of women.  We are taught that women are made from sugar and spice and everything nice and men are made from snips and snails and puppy dog tails.  Well, it's no wonder that there will be difficulty getting the two to just mix naturally.  The question could be just as easily asked about something other than gaming, like for example car racing, and my response would be similar.  I believe thoth already hit on this idea rather well.

With that said, what's to be done then?  contracycle iz correct; doing nothing iz a shoddy answer.  I think most of us agree with that.  You guys say you like playing in mixed groups, and hey, us girls like to play!

You are on the right track with the socialize first idea.  Since it's unlikly that anything can be changed on a widespread scale, by anything short of time, it means we have to take care of the problem as individuals.  Talk to a girl you may want to game with, get to know her, invite her.  Who knows, then she may tell all her girlfriends about it hence bringing more girls into the hobby.  Eureka!  But you all already had this figured out.  :)

I've found myself loathe to invite females that I didn't know well to one of my gaming sessions, solely because I was inviting a lone woman into a private home with two to three men present, which taken objectively sounds like an opportunity for trouble.

I wonder how much of the low women gamer count has to do with social constraints against lone women entering male dominated environs rather than any blatent sexism associated with rpg's.

Now this iz a whole other animal, and one well worth addressing.  In my opinion it has a lot to do with why many women will refuse an invitation, dispite an interest or curiosity.  If you (as in a man) feel nervous about this, or are afraid that the girl you wish to invite may be, I have an excellent solution.  Meet somewhere neutral.  You could meet at a local game shop, or (my favorite) if you have a college campus in your town you can probably find space there in a student center or library.  

You could meet in a neutral space until everyone involved iz more comfortable with each other (a few sessions perhaps) then resume playing back in yer comfy abode.  If you are still nervous about it after a few sessions you can always talk to the girl about it.  Honesty goes a long way and you would probably both get a laugh about it and the tension may be broken as you had just addressed something that had probably been one of her concerns too.  

Personally, reading all the posts on here from you guys wanting to do something about this proves to me that the Forge itself iz a female friendly environment.  I know there are other girls on here that have expressed otherwise, and they are more than welcome to have that opinion, but I am not among them.  

Whew.  That was a long post...  Sorry 'bout that; it's the writer in me.  :)

EDIT: I just crossposted with Clay and Ron and my response iz...yuppers.  I have to agree.  Nothing kills sexual tension like a good lay.  (Iz it appropriate for me, a woman, to agree?  Now that iz a different social question entirely. *laff*)

[thoth]

Yes, of course we can.  The only thing that changes anything anywhere is human action (caveat: context is society).  To declare that we are not responsible for our own back yard becuase there is a broader problem is to merely decline to do anything; to wait for someone else, someone unkown, to actually do something.  But, if everybody is waiting for someone else to do it, nothing gets done.  Yes we can look after our own patch, and the very fact that we do so will feed back into and impact on society at large.  That is how social change happens.

The problem I see is that the gamer community might be concerned only with its own backyard. And I don't see a fairly small non-mainstream community having enough feedback into larger society to make any real impact on that larger society's problem. So my suggestion is not 'do nothing' or 'wait for someone else', instead i'm saying don't limit action to smaller community. I think it needs to be dealt with by taking action in both the larger society and gamer community to actually be dealt with in a truly meaningful fashion.

[thoth]

So semi-regular nookie is a good way to deal with sexual tension between male and female gamers. And individual socialzing with a female is a good way to bust through preconceptions, and/or anxiety. But both of these require a female partner (social or significant), what of those who are not so fortunate as to have a female partner?

[Gordon C. Landis]

So semi-regular nookie is a good way to deal with sexual tension between male and female gamers. And individual socialzing with a female is a good way to bust through preconceptions, and/or anxiety. But both of these require a female partner (social or significant), what of those who are not so fortunate as to have a female partner?

Hmm - I'll join in the blunt approach here and say "find one."  If you're not so fortunate as to have one, go out and find one.  Actually, find a bunch.  Meet 'em at work, at your Martial Arts class, through a friend of a friend . . .  whatever.  

I'm not saying it's easy, and I'm also not saying it's hard.  There are plenty of places to get advice about how to do it, and the Forge ain't one of 'em.

But you asked a question, and really, that's the only answer.  Change the situation.  It can be done.

Gordon

[Jack Spencer Jr]

what of those who are not so fortunate as to have a female partner?

Well, this is getting a little sticky (no pun intended...well, maybe a little) but I don't think that it's really the place of the Forge to offer advice at acquiring a significant other. I mean, we could give you dating advice, but I think we can just leave it at "well, get one" or, better yet, "at least be aware of the problem and try to keep it under control." You can't change what you don't acknowledge.  There is some advice for a temporary fix in There's Something About Mary, and I think we can leave it right there, don't you?

EDIT: Gordon> Jinx.

[thoth]

Hmm - I'll join in the blunt approach here and say "find one."  If you're not so fortunate as to have one, go out and find one.  Actually, find a bunch.  Meet 'em at work, at your Martial Arts class, through a friend of a friend . . .  whatever.  

I'm not saying it's easy, and I'm also not saying it's hard.  There are plenty of places to get advice about how to do it, and the Forge ain't one of 'em.

But you asked a question, and really, that's the only answer.  Change the situation.  It can be done.

Gordon

Hehe, yes that is the solution. But that assumes someone actually wants to find a female partner. And those people are not the problem with sexism in the gamer community. The problem are those who have sexist tendencies, who would not seek a female partner and who set up a block for females to join the gamer community. And those are the people that need to be dealt with inside the gamer community. And yes, I do think they can be dealt with because I believe most of them are not overtly and intentionally sexist, and would probably change when they realized its better then being a prick, adds diversity, etc.

The main point I see in this thread is the question of "how to break down the blocks between the gamer community and females". Direct and open communication has provided an answer for dealing with these blocks on an individual level, but not on a gamer community level. But they can only be truly dealt with on an individual level. But people are probably not going to deal with them on an individual level without some sort of impetus. So, what can the gamer community, or individuals within it, do to provide this impetus to other individual gamers to face the problem and tear down the wall? And thus deal with it on a gamer community level.

Does that make ANY sense at all?

NOTE: I was NOT asking asking for tips on how to pick up chicks and get laid :P
Nothing personal, but this is the last place I go unless I had a question about 'how-to-get-laid' game mechanics ;)

[damion]

Well, the last couple posts seem to provide solutions to the current problem. Perhaps a discussion of how the the situation developed in the first place and
if any remenats of it are around might be helpfull?

[Jack Spencer Jr]

So, what can the gamer community, or individuals within it, do to provide this impetus to other individual gamers to face the problem and tear down the wall? And thus deal with it on a gamer community level.

OK, now this is an interesting question. Obviously it will only happen on the individual level, but how to get that ball rolling? Plenty of lame half-assed attempts have been made over the years, like how the WoD books were written with the GM being referred to as a female-- pointless if a female doesn't read it--, but what's a real way to do this?

I'll be honest, I don't know except that whenever the topic comes up, everyone offers positive reinforcement that women make great gamers.

Picture it. Some gamer doodz are sitting around discussing gaming and the topic drifts to female gamers. One guy says "I don't play with skirts." and another offers a personal anecdote about a bad experience they had with one particular female. This is a good time to chime in with your own *positive* story about the females you have gamed with, to sow the seeds in these guys' minds that females do make great gamers. I think that's the best thing we can do. I'm sure we all have plenty of negative stories, because women are still people and there are jerks in every group, but do not share those. Emphasise the positive until this is no longer an issue. Eventually the positive will take hold.

And you ladies out there have a very simple responsibility to help this. Be yourself, but be the best you you can be.

Personally, I think it's unfair to put the weight of an entire population's image on a single person's shoulders like that, but that's just how it it. People make snap judgements and knee-jerk reactions. Telling them how wrong it is will not change it. We all just have to try to make sure they make a positive snap judgement. Not just females, here, but gamers in general.

[Gordon C. Landis]

Amos,

Got you - I agree (and said so in my post), this is NOT the place for dating advice :-)  You're really asking about what we can do about folks for whom the "change it" advice just doesn't sink in.

But - the general advice is the same, I think - those in the gamer community (whatever that is) who won't/don't follow it just need  . . . whatever it is they need to start following it.  So you're really asking what we can do to *get* them to follow that advice.  If you're gaming with friends, then you can help out your friends with their personal issues to whatever degree you're comfortable with (and again, there are better places than here to get info on how to do that).

But there is a BIG issue, discussed in one of the Social Issues threads - the idea that we excuse certain types of behavior in our fellow gamers just 'cause they're fellow gamers.  One good principle might be that sexism (unlike, say, enjoying pretend-fights with realistic swords or even - gulp - males who dress as Sailor Scouts "for the fun of it") needs to be a behavior that other gamers DO NOT "let slide."  At all.

Hope that gets us on the same page - I obviously misinterpreted where you were going with the "what about those who don't?" thing at first.

Gordon

[MK Snyder]

Re: sexual tension.

Gentlemen, take the solution into your own hands. The belief that one must expend one's sexual tension with a female partner is part of the problem.

Watch out for AntiMotherhood advertising. For example, look at the description of this forum's "Critical Hit" section. What, fathers can't be fuddy duddies too?

The Issue of Artwork has been well covered. Or rather, the uncovered nature of issued artwork re:the female form.

Forget Not the Foremothers: women were playing and designing RPG's in the 80's. "I can't think of any at all."

Be Aware That Women Can't Rest:

stupid sex stats

Is it worth it to add art that targets women as players?

Can't even invite a friends' kids to a convention because of the cheesecake factor

I want large breasted, well-armed women and nothing will change my mind!

I can find more, but my husband keeps interrupting me to discuss family schedule.

[C. Edwards]

I don't see the problem being sexism so much as being a matter of impolite behavior. Now, I'm not saying that there is no such thing as sexism.  I've had about two dozen sexist thoughts in the last 15 minutes.  I'm a heterosexual male, and that fact alone guarantees at least a  somewhat sexist outlook.  Sexist thoughts, and actions, often stem from deeply rooted biological and psychological issues.  Yes, cultural issues are involved, but they are often rooted in those same biological and psychological issues.

I think men and women are both, by their very nature, sexist.  What is important is how they handle themselves when dealing with members of the opposite sex.  Being aware of what behavior might be construed as sexist might help, but that sounds too much like a blanket excuse for political correctness.  I think the only real thing to do is to be polite and considerate of those around you, something that we should all be doing anyway.  Of course there are a good deal of very rude and hopelessly misinformed people out there who are at a total loss when it comes to social aptitude.

One final, possibly contentious, thought.  I see nothing inherently wrong with the "I want large breasted, well-armed women and nothing will change my mind!" thread.  A woman, or homosexual male for that matter, could very well have posted the opposite and I would have no problem with it.  This is only my personal experience but I've found that the more comfortable someone is in their own skin the less likely it is that the expression of such thoughts will bother them.  Granted, not being able to take kids to a convention because of the cheesecake is a real bummer.  But I have to wonder, I've seen my share of real women in chain-mail bikinis, at conventions and ren-faires, and from what I've gathered they don't see any issues with their mode of dress or with children seeing them outfitted in such a manner.  Honestly, you can see more flesh at the beach or by a public pool than you can at a game convention.

I'm thinking of a few more points and questions, but I'll leave it there for now.

-Chris

p.s. I was considering going into the "Some people take things far too seriously" rant, but thought better of it. :)

[thoth]

Gentlemen, take the solution into your own hands. The belief that one must expend one's sexual tension with a female partner is part of the problem.

How many gamers do you think take the solution into their own hands? And still have sexual tension towards a female? I'd say it has less to do with the actual sexual release as it has to do with the woman.

Watch out for AntiMotherhood advertising. For example, look at the description of this forum's "Critical Hit" section. What, fathers can't be fuddy duddies too?

Maybe the implication is that mother's aren't easily embarrassed and that it'd take a 'no-holds-barred' forum to embarrass your mother.

Forget Not the Foremothers: women were playing and designing RPG's in the 80's. "I can't think of any at all."

Hey, I can't of any blonde haired game designers. My ignorance, and his on the matter of women designers, speaks only to that ignorance.

And on a personal note, I know that Rallan guy from another place, he's just a self-righteous asstroll anyways :) (who used the whole 'roll-playing vs role-playing' crap too, and guess who the 'role-player' was).

In any case, so someone doesn't know about women designers. So what? That doesn't stop women from being a creative force.

And another personal note, I don't care about the gender of a designer. What I do and would care about is if a designer was not given a fair chance because of gender.

Be Aware That Women Can't Rest:

stupid sex stats

Nothing wrong with gender based stats. Men and women are different. What is stupid is applying cultural expectations and doctrine as 'fact', such as 'women are less intelligent but more intuitive'.

Although, there also might not be anything wrong with apply cultural modifiers to stats, because some people actually buy crap. Meaning, if a culture put  an emphasis on females bulking up and males not, wouldn't the bulk of men and women in that culture reflect that to some degree? But cultural stat modifications would have to be clearly stated as such and presented as basically an option and question of whether the character follows the cultural expectations, or goes counter, etc.

Is it worth it to add art that targets women as players?

Can't even invite a friends' kids to a convention because of the
[url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=355&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=girl]I want large breasted, well-armed women and nothing will change my mind!

Can you expand with some text? Citation shouldn't be the argument but be the support of the argument. I want to hear your argument, i'm sure others do too. I also think your argument needs to be heard.

I can find more, but my husband keeps interrupting me to discuss family schedule.

YOUR husband? Do you own him or something? ;)

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Amos,

Let's not attack Maryanne's points. Her view is just as valid as anyone else's. Let's do examine them, though.

Maryanne,

I think you may have read Clay's 'get laid' point wrong. I think it's much less about the sexual release than about the mutual understanding that comes from sex.

(Before I continue, I am making one assumption that if you disagree with invalidates my statement. That assumption: men and women are different, and one can never completely comprehend the other because of these differences. Where these come from, I'm not saying.)

Sex isn't something that a man "does to" a woman just for sexual release. (Well, not always. It isn't in my case, at least.) I love sex with my partner - to be honest, it's my favorite thing in the world. I'm a pretty typical male in that I'm always trying to get in her pants. I have a good reason, though: sex is a mutual activity in which we both get more understanding about the other than perhaps any other way. During sex, I learn things about her behavior that apply in all other parts of our life. From this, I learn things about women that I wouldn't know otherwise.

Your links were great examples of how the RPG community can have sexist elements.