The Forge Archives

Quote from: NuredinWe could go on to explore the ergonomics of a good gaming environment...

Cool topic. I've often heard discussions of mood stuff, lighting, music, etc, but I've not really heard anything about the ergonomics per se. I think that, obviously, RPGs are not strenuous, so I don't think about it in terms of work. What I really want to contemplate is Human Factors (of which ergonomics is a subset as is cybernetics), and how it relates to improving the experience.

Not really sure where to start. The only question that occurs to me is the one of what sort of space is used. The obvious one is, "Do you play around a table?" If so, why? If not, do you play in a circle (this seems common)? In what space? Why?

What about these physical configurations make them good, bad, etc?

And feel free to bring up any related concerns.

Mike

Ahh, where to begin...  I suppose I'll begin with where and go from there.  My group has six players and we meet in my living room.  It came to pass that we would meet at my place because I have the biggest couch by far.  It's one of those L shaped ones and it seats 5 without any sardine like side effects.  There iz a coffee table, which we all roll on, in the bend of the L.  So, I suppose we do meet around a table, although I've never really thought of it until now.  We also have a chair on the other side of the table from the L.  We call this chair "the captain's chair" as it iz where the GM sits.  (We rotate GM's in our game.)

It's taken some time for this layout to evolve.  We find that the players sitting in a horseshoe like shape around the GM really assists game play.  This way the GM iz easily seen and heard by all and he can likewise see and hear.  It also gives the GM plenty of extra room to spread out.  Having the table in the middle works great for us because we can then put fun stuff like maps there for all to see, and we like rolling in plain sight.  Not to imply I play with a bunch of cheater-monkeys but rolling on the table iz like putting a lock on your door: it keeps an honest man honest.  We also often put whomever iz cooking on the end of the couch closest to the kitchen as they will be in and out of the kitchen for a few hours.

One funny story about ergonomics...  Once, not that long ago, we were a group of seven.  (That iz in itself another story.)  So where do we put our additional player?  No room on the couch and my living room will just not accomidate another chair.  Well, we have one of those fireplaces with bricks in front of it like a stoop.  Not a bad height to sit at really, but a might bit hard on the ass for our long sessions.  It was decided, as a group, that we would use it as negative reinforcment: whoever was latest (last one there) would have to sit on the bricks.  Rather funny really.

Quote from: Mike Holmes

Not really sure where to start. The only question that occurs to me is the one of what sort of space is used. The obvious one is, "Do you play around a table?" If so, why? If not, do you play in a circle (this seems common)? In what space? Why?

What about these physical configurations make them good, bad, etc?

Ummm...let's see...

 Generally, I play around a table, but usually that table isn't right to hand, it's more in the center of the circle.  In some cases, the table only gets used to hold pizza and nothing more, in some it provides the surface for the minis and the battlemat.  So I'd say that I generally play "in circle" but there's almost always a table as opposed to "I sit around a table and play".

 A table is great for holding your stuff and for games that use minis and such, it's absolutely vital.  You need to have it in the center so everyone can see it.  Sitting in a circle ensures you can see what's in the middle of the table and communicate with everyone else.  Consider trying to play an RPG if you sat classroom style (with all the PCs facing the GM).  You could even use a magnetic whiteboard to track position and such.  I don't think anyone would want to play that way because the ability to socialize would be significantly reduced.

 I've played with and enjoyed using little side tables (like TV Dinner stands and the like).  It provides a nice flat surface to store things and make rolls on.

 The actual space I play in varies.  Usually, it's a living room.  But I also play regularly at a College Campus Center and I've recently played in the outside a store at a mall.  I don't think I've ever played in a kitchen or a dining room.  The more private the space, the better.  Less distractions and outside noise.

 One thing that I really hate is when GMs try to do mood lighting. Especially when they try to light the game solely by candlelight.  I've generally seen that done for horror games.  But really, unless the system is so simple you never need to consult the books or your character sheet, it's almost always way too dark to see by and it really detracts rather than adds to the game.

later
Tom

Music may be useful in certain scenes for setting mood, but I think music for the sake of music is a distraction (another voice to talk over).  When a group thinks its necessary to provide background noise, this indicates (to me anyway) the game itself does not hold the players' interests fully.

As far as physical configuration I'd like to add a point about the GM's screen.  It can be a useful tool, but I feel its normal position in front of the GM seperates the GM from the players, and encourages the GM to hide behind it and talking into the table.  I prefer the screen (if any screen at all) to be off to the side of the GM...which means you need a suitable surface next to the GM (to return to the topic of the thread).

We play at my dining room table.  I think that sitting around the table helps to focus everyone on the game.  You're close together and can easily see and talk to everyone.  There's lots of room to roll dice.  When necessary, I can put down a white board to draw a quick map.  In the past, I've run games in the living room of different apartments I lived in but I like the dining room table better.  There always seemed to be too much space between me and the players in the living room.

I don't use music when playing because I find it a distraction, but I do like to have music playing during character creation to help set the mood.  For a Dread game I ran recently, on player brought over a CD to show me the kind of music his character would listen to so that played while the players finished  picking out spells and skills.  And I had a lot of fun picking out music to listen to while creating characters for a game that had the PCs investigating weirdness on a commune in 1970.

Quote
Consider trying to play an RPG if you sat classroom style [...]

I actually did play (briefly) in that kind of situation a long time ago.  It was horrible but that was only partly because we were playing in a classroom.

I also prefer table gaming.  Table gaming to me sets a clear break that "social time" (which occurs lounging around in the living room) is over and "game time" has begun.  The time for idle chit chat and remarking on the latest episode of Farscape is over.

I also find that playing in a relaxed lounge type setting seems to lead to relaxed focus on the mechanics of the game.  Now I'm not a big fan of rules heavy stuff by anymeans, but IMO, if you're playing a game with rules you ought to be playing by the rules.  Living room gaming has always led to more of a "winging it" environment.  The same group of gamers playing the same game in the same campaign seem more willing to play faster and looser with the rules if their sprawled out on a couch than if they're sitting around a gaming table.  Perhaps its because they get too comfortable to want to have to move to fish out the rule book, but that's generally been my experience.  

I also don't generally like music at the table.  I find it generally proves more distracting than mood setting.  Perhaps if there was a dedicated non gaming DJ to make sure the right music was playing at the right time and reached its hieght at appropriate places it would be different.

Cool responses, so far.

It seems to me that the circle layout (and it's close cousin the horseshoe with important participant at head) are common for two reasons.

One, it's actually traditional. I'm not sure if people told stories around campfires because it was the only time people gathered in such a configuration, making it viable, or if it's because of the hypnotic nature of fire. Probably some of both. But the result is that storytelling is done in circles.

Additionally, it's the way you must be to play most other board games. Including wargames. As RPGs descend from wargames (including miniatures use), there is a requirement to be around a central surface for play. This continues to be true to an extent. The surface does not seem to need to be central, but you need somethig to write on, and some place to roll dice, etc, for most RPGs.

So the circle is common, particularly around a table. Hence table-top as a monicker. Some people refer to it as Face-to-Face (FTF), but that's mostly as opposed to playing online. The real question then is, are there other, perhaps better, ways to conficcgure play? What would be optimal for a roleplaying suite?

Tangent:
It occurs to me that part of the image problem that people may have with RPGs is precisely the circular thing. Lesse, sit in a circle around fetishistic objects (like minis) and speak in a ritualized manner about stuff like casting spells. Does this sound like a coven to anyone else? I have to admit that when I saw Mazes and Monsters for the first time that I was appalled by the portrayal of play, but thinking about it now, perhaps that is, for all intents and purposes what people see when they see play occur. Yeesh, no wonder people think RPGs are weird.
End Tangent.

Anyhow, a lot of this seems pretty obvious so far. Like the need for enough seating (I liked your thing about negative reinforcement with the "dunce chair" approach to tardiness, Ziriel). Funny you mention the couch. Personally I feel uncomforable on a couch with other people, unless there is a way lot of room between everyone. Probably has to do with my size (285lbs). So, personally, I'd advocate individual seats for each player. Though I'm sure that different people will have varying tastes as far as this is concerned; especially other cultures that have different social spaces than American's do.

What I'm getting at is that this is all fairly straightforward (of course private and therefore less distracting is better). But that's because we're describing the norm. My question would be, is there a better way we haven't thought about? Something about how we traditionally do things thats wrong, or could be improved? I think it's interesting that it's all taken for granted for the most part.

Mike

Hello all,

My eccentric gaming experiences have mostly taken place in living room type spaces.  Partly because in the past we would play for long hours, for which you really need to be comfortable, and partly because, in the main, there was little use of books, dice, sheets etc.  My current gaming group sits in the living room, and when we need it, we pull out a folder that holds all of our gaming materials.  Or make a surface if we need to roll dice.  The pad we use to record events is the primary tool used.

Mike, are we talking "what are we missing because we are thinking of the norm as mainstream?"

Pros for the traditional circle-round-the-table model that's been talked about so far are many: everyone can see one another, it makes it easier to write/use props etc., there's somewhere to hold the pizza.  As Mike said, it's how most games are played--board or card etc., so it's familiar to most.  You'd think that non-gamers would be most comfortable with this sort of arrangement, since it is so much like other more known games.  

As far as other models, the first thing that came to mind was the psychiatric model: patient on the couch, doctor sitting behind with pad in hand.  (Makes me think of the gm-player relationship somehow.)  If a group was going for a deeply immersive in-character experience, then lying down and getting into meditative or trance space would be helpful.

I guess, a question I see here is, what effects that would help play are not being supported by the usual way of things?  

Would different types of games benefit from different physical settings or arrangements?  What's that game, asshole and president where the seating arrangement changes based on who's winning.  Inspectres has something that makes players who are doing a confessional moment stand out.  There could be a spotlight chair for players whose character is currently being protagonized in a game the supports narrativist decisions.  Or competition for seating in a gamist one.  What else?

And then there's LARPing.  That's what the Mazes and Monsters type scare gets at more than table-top gaming, I'd say.

--Emily Care

QuoteYou'd think that non-gamers would be most comfortable with this sort of arrangement, since it is so much like other more known games.

Actually, I think that's part of the problem. The incongruous thing is coming together around a table, and there's no board on the table, or cards being played. What kind of game is that? In fact, it's no kind of game at all. I'm of the opinion that RPGs should be called Role-playing Entertainment. Or some such. Not for debate here, but the point is that it looks like a game in terms of people hudled about a table, but it's not like what people expect a game to be.

I don't care about mainstream. I'm only concerned with what enhances play, really (the above is a tangent for another thread, perhaps). I like your brainstorming. I'm not sure I see any clear winners there, but hoefully it'll get people thinking. Good point about the InSpectres confessionals. At Origins we arranged a bench with everyone on it across from the single player sitting on a lonely chair. Seemed to have a good effect. That's exactly the kinda thing I'm talking about. Even something as simple as Ralph's suggestion about seating being the formalizer is pertinent (I may use that for one group I play with; I don't use it at all  right now).

Mike

Oh!

 I forgot one:

 I sometimes play freeform RPGs or LARPs in bed.  They're my favorite.  :)

 Although, in an effort to help suggest new frontiers of gaming environment, I will now suggest playing a game from a bed (or multiple beds) and/or camping/in sleeping bags.  This would probably only serve as a kind of atmosphere to the main game (bed games could have a Salon motif, sleeping bags have a clear camping/ghost stories/bear outside the tent motif going on).

Quote from: Mike Holmes
Actually, I think that's part of the problem. The incongruous thing is coming together around a table, and there's no board on the table, or cards being played. What kind of game is that? In fact, it's no kind of game at all.

Ummm...I often have little playing pieces and whatnot all over a board in most of the games I play.

Quote from: Mike Holmes
I don't care about mainstream. I'm only concerned with what enhances play, really (the above is a tangent for another thread, perhaps).

Can you define that a bit?  By Enhances Play do you mean:

 a.)  The environment makes it easier to play the game.
 b.)  The environment makes it easier to imagine the game.
 c.)  A little of both.

I'm kinda working off the assumption that you mean a.  I'm having difficulty thinking of something that would seriously improve the quality of gaming that breaks from a circular format.

When I was younger, me and my friends had the idea of setting up a "MegaTable".  There'd be a wide space to lay out minis and the battlemat and stuff, built-in shelving and drawers to hold games and supplies, and little terminals at each seat hooked up to a centeral server at the GMs seat.  The GM could run programs and keep track of things and the players could also take advantage of the system.  You could even pass secret notes.

Of course, we immediately realized that as soon as the Thief started typing, there'd be a blitz of messages back and forth and no one would actually play anymore.  :)

Still, I've always dreamed about building that table....

Would this be a different or improved envrionment?  A purpose-built table?

later
Tom

Oh, sure, hasn't everyone designed perfect gaming tables on paper, at one time or another? With, you know, little dice-catching troughs around the edges?

Actually, there's one outrageous play aid that I fully intend to build and try out, once the price of LCD projectors comes down a bit more (or my income comes up). A projector and mirror arrangement to project vertically downward onto the tabletop, with custom software I'm building in Macromedia Director running it. Used with minis, it should be able to project terrain, structure walls, limited and moving light sources in dark locations, special ambient lighting (e.g. underwater), blast radii and other areas of effect, weather, mood lighting for the villains, ranging circles, even little "work light" areas in front of the players.

Of course, blinding glare might be a problem. In which case, I'll have to wait until I can get a flat screen big enough to put legs on it and use it as the tabletop.

- Walt

Well there's the Ultimate Gaming Table that makes me feel... special... everytime I see it.

http://www.agyris.net/portal/game_table.asp?Flash=false

Of course it is very expensive to build...but damn it's so cool.

I want to game outside someday.  Of course only certain games would work outside.

Other ideas, semi-larp where you change seating depending on where your character is.  Like a car, set up the chairs like a car, and sit them down where they would be sitting.

-Joshua

This is a cool topic.

I don't care if the group is at a table, but I don't like not having my own handy flat surface to put the charsheet on or to roll dice or whatever.

The thing I like about a table is that it gathers everyone around a central point, facing one another. What I don't like is the flexibility. I like to stand up sometimes as player and/or GM, waving my arms all nutty like, and a bona fide table can sometimes make that awkward. And if no table, then definitely positioned so that everyone is ready to interact.

And always gotta have good seating. Doesn't it seem like at every game there are choice seats? Or the one crappy chair that inspires you to arrive a little early so you can avoid it? To confess, my gaming area has metal folding chairs, but I'm slowly upgrading to the padded ones. Clinton has this freaky plastic chair that just has it in for me. No one else has a problem with it, but I can't for the life of me figure out how to sit in it without pain.

It'd be cool to do more of these. Hmm...

I've played in a few different environments:

-Big table with GM at the head -- not bad, but I feet really cramped at tables, especially if I'm using a GM screen

-Lying on the floor (I had no furniture) -- on reflection this is was ideal, I could stretch out and get as much space as possible. Obviously haven't done this one in a while.

-Hanging out in a living room -- it sucks if I'm trying to keep order lots of paperwork or notes (try D&D3e with all 3 books open at once and all you've got is a chair). Its great if its just me and my head. Obviously only good for really "lite" (vanilla?) games like the Pool.
-Combination living room/table -- a friends running his Spycraft game by having his own folding table, while the remainder of us use his coffee table to roll. This works really well actually.

I'd also like to point out a habit that I've never seen anyone else do -- I pace when I GM. I physically get up and walk around the room. I find this works well for me.

Also, food wise, I drink constantly. It doesn't matter what -- soda, beer, water, juice. I drink like a fish when I game.

Hope that helps out,

Steve Dustin

Hey Steve,

Quote from: Steve DustinI'd also like to point out a habit that I've never seen anyone else do -- I pace when I GM. I physically get up and walk around the room. I find this works well for me.

Put me on that list.  For a group, I feel oppressed as a gamemaster if I can't stalk about 'the table' and become wildly dramatic in action and speech.  I especially like putting people on the spot with a little 'in yer face' or 'too close for comfort' interaction.  (It's basically how I keep players from dominating play through force of personality.)

Fang Langford