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Large-scale RPG club

Started by Irmo, December 05, 2002, 07:19:53 PM

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quozl

I'm not sure if it belongs here but I have a question.

What's the difference between a large-scale RPG club and The Forge?
--- Jonathan N.
Currently playtesting Frankenstein's Monsters

Irmo

Quote from: quozlI'm not sure if it belongs here but I have a question.

What's the difference between a large-scale RPG club and The Forge?


A club organizes RP events. A large-scale club organizes RP events both on a local and regional/national scale. That's both regular cons and individual local weekly/biweekly opportunities to RP at a fixed location and time (for those who can't RP at home). A club is an organization not just with a presence towards its members but towards the outside as well. It actively goes out to recruit new members and to promote the interests of present members (e.g. by writing letters to the editor of newspapers running anti-RPG articles, by talking with city officials etc.). The Forge has a number of members that are essentially incognito. While many use their real name, short of knowing them personally, there is no way of knowing that that is in fact their real name. A club has a member roster and official proof it represents a certain number of people with a common interest.
When charging membership fees, a club has operating funds and doesn't have to ask for donations.

Among other things.

quozl

So, if The Forge organized RP events, actively recruited new members, promoted roleplaying, and verified the identity of its members, would it be a large-scale game club?
--- Jonathan N.
Currently playtesting Frankenstein's Monsters

Ozymandias

Quote from: Mike HolmesThat's the usual anti-RPGA line. And it's probably valid. Still, can we hear from anyone who might be a member, or have a good opinion of it? I'm wondering if there might not be other problems than Seth mentioned. For example, there cerainly seem to be enough D&D players to support the RPGA well.

As member and occassional attendee of RPGA events, I can fill in a couple of the gaps here.

1. Membership in the RPGA is free and has been since earlier this year when they converted Polyhedron from being a publication for RPGA members to being the flipside of Dungeon Magazine used to cover d20 stuff.

2. The primary focus of the organization is the various Living campaigns (some official RPGA campaigns and some member sponsored). I think this may be what Seth was referring to as tournaments, in that you're playing through a pre-set module, but it should be noted that people do play maintain and advance their characters from module to module and so we're talking about something a bit more complicated and there is a bit more character attachment than a one-shot tpe tourney at a con. Pretty much all the campaigns are D&D (or at least d20) centric with the only exceptions being an Alternity and a Shadowrun campaign.

3. While members can take initiative towards starting and maintaining non-WotC campaigns (ie: Shadowrun) the RPGA is essentially, as Seth already said, a house organ for WotC.

4. The are numerous regional and local chapters which sponsor small cons and game days throughout the year. (The one here in North Georgia, will generally have at least one event per month.)

Now, all that said, I would think there is definitly room for a broader-based club on a national scale. Organized play is an excellent way to introduce new people into the hobby as well introduce those in the hobby to new games. I do know who those currently utilize the RPGA as their primary source for roleplaying less because they like D&D than because they like the reliablity of play that the organization provides them. A club which offers that along with a greater variety of games would most certainly appeal to a decent-sized group of people.

Finally, it is worth noting that there are at least two other clubs sponsored by RPG companies, those being White Wolf's Camarilla and Kenzerco's HMPA. Past that it's pretty wide open so far as I know.


QuoteHmmm. Maybe we should look at this from another POV.  If a well organized national RPG club did exist, would you join it?

Yup.

QuoteHow much would you pay to join (if anything)? What benefits would you would you expect to see from membership?

I think the club providing regular events, game days, etc in order to get people actually playing games would be my biggest priority. In terms of cost it would depend on what one is actually getting for said cost. If you're paying for a membership, then I'd definitly want to get some sort of magazine/newsletter. It'd also be reasonable to charge a modest fee for mini-cons or game days hosted by the club (typical RPGA event would run $10 for the weekend which include 5-7 sessions of playing) this would help to offset the cost of a given venue (which is generally pretty cheap if not free as we're generally talking about the student center at a local college or a local game store) and support the club.

Mike Holmes

Quote from: quozlSo, if The Forge organized RP events, actively recruited new members, promoted roleplaying, and verified the identity of its members, would it be a large-scale game club?
Jon, shhhhh! Don't spoil it by making it obvious too early...

OK, too late. Yes, that's been my thinking all along. Or, if not The Forge itself, then an associated organization.

The only real problem at this point is the relatively low membership. Let's call a third of our members or, say, 350 people, "active", and imagine that they all joined up. At $40 each, that's just $14,000 dollars a year to promote events. That's one small Con. Easier to organize the Con, and charge the $40 at the door. To get things going on a larger scale, we'd need to be able to accmulate a much larger membership.

So, any ideas how that could be done to expand membership while not damaging the community? This is why I'm thinking that a Forge Auxilliary or somethign might be more appropriate. Somewhat like how Indie Net-gaming is associated informally right now.

Cracked? Or does this make any sense?

Mike
Member of Indie Netgaming
-Get your indie game fix online.

Mike Holmes

Quote from: Ozymandias
2. The primary focus of the organization is the various Living campaigns (some official RPGA campaigns and some member sponsored). I think this may be what Seth was referring to as tournaments,
I think that Seth was refering to the normal events like you see at GenCon. Which do have a tournament advancement method in most games (or at least did in the past). That is, the best role-player from each session is advanced to the next round of play.

Note that this is a definite improvement, IMHO, from the method used for tournaments run prviously by TSR where advancement was by party using a point system for the party who crushed the module in the most tactically sound manner. But that's just my anti-Gamist bias showing.

Mike
Member of Indie Netgaming
-Get your indie game fix online.

quozl

Quote from: Mike HolmesJon, shhhhh! Don't spoil it by making it obvious too early...

Sorry, I get so impatient.... :-)

Quote from: Mike HolmesSo, any ideas how that could be done to expand membership while not damaging the community? This is why I'm thinking that a Forge Auxilliary or somethign might be more appropriate. Somewhat like how Indie Net-gaming is associated informally right now.

Cracked? Or does this make any sense?

Mike

I also think that a "large scale internet rpg club" should be done on a different site.  This site is too closely focused to be what this hypothetical club needs to be.  

That said, you're going to need incentives for large numbers of people to join (otherwise, you'll just get the hardcore).  Since I'm assuming nobody has donated a pot of gold, what can you give to members shelling out their money?  A magazine is a good idea but we'll need volunteers and material (a free indie game in each magazine is a great idea and has really boosted Polyhedron).  What else?
--- Jonathan N.
Currently playtesting Frankenstein's Monsters

Alan

Quote from: Mike HolmesSo, any ideas how that could be done to expand membership while not damaging the community? This is why I'm thinking that a Forge Auxilliary or somethign might be more appropriate. Somewhat like how Indie Net-gaming is associated informally right now.

Aha!  I've suspected that Ron's five posts were leading this direction since #4!

First, I'm concerned about the integrity of vision for the Forge.  If this forum were to become the core of a larger, more generalized one, we would probably see a dilution of what makes the Forge  attractive to me. Could we set up a separate club forum without being elitist, or being seen as elitist?

Second, how to grow.  Well, Forge members are spread throughout the US and some of the world.  I perceive that many Forgers would agree that local events are an important element of a club.  Forge members could recruit locally.

As an example, Clinton, Mark, Matt, Jeff, and I (and few others) are all connected in one way or another with the informal Seattle Gamers Assemble.  The last few Monday's we've had an exciting little "open Game Night" developing at a gamestore.  Some of us have even mentioned presenting a zero-budget, mini indie-con.

Such an event would be a place to kick off recruitment.  If many such events took place in the coming year in the different cities which Forgers occupy, the organization would grow.  If the new members actually find benefits in being a member, then it'll grow by word of mouth.  Build it and they will come.
- Alan

A Writer's Blog: http://www.alanbarclay.com

Mike Holmes

Quote from: Alan
Aha!  I've suspected that Ron's five posts were leading this direction since #4!
Hey, this is my agenda, not Ron's! ;-)

But seriously, I woudn't be surprised if Ron actually thought that this was a bad idea. He and I have some differences of opinions over the results of the whole Big 5 essays thing.

OTOH, maybe he thinks its cool, too. But let's not assume anything.

QuoteFirst, I'm concerned about the integrity of vision for the Forge.  If this forum were to become the core of a larger, more generalized one, we would probably see a dilution of what makes the Forge  attractive to me. Could we set up a separate club forum without being elitist, or being seen as elitist?
I think we're all thinking along that line. I think it could work, theoretically.

QuoteSecond, how to grow.  Well, Forge members are spread throughout the US and some of the world.  I perceive that many Forgers would agree that local events are an important element of a club.  Forge members could recruit locally.
Recruiting is hard work. Ask any military recruiter. Sure this would be easier, but they work full time. Anyhow, the logistics involved in recruiting are just crazy. It's way stressful.

QuoteAs an example, Clinton, Mark, Matt, Jeff, and I (and few others) are all connected in one way or another with the informal Seattle Gamers Assemble.  The last few Monday's we've had an exciting little "open Game Night" developing at a gamestore.  Some of us have even mentioned presenting a zero-budget, mini indie-con.
Sounds like a good model for a chapter. I think that's one thing that we'd definitely have to outline well if this were to get off the ground.

QuoteSuch an event would be a place to kick off recruitment.  If many such events took place in the coming year in the different cities which Forgers occupy, the organization would grow.  If the new members actually find benefits in being a member, then it'll grow by word of mouth.  Build it and they will come.
I wonder how the game stores would react. Should be a positive thing, I'd think. But I'm not entirely convinced. Sounds mostly like we'd be attracting the current game crowd in. As opposed to outside recruitment. Still...

Mike
Member of Indie Netgaming
-Get your indie game fix online.

Ozymandias

Quote from: Mike Holmes
The only real problem at this point is the relatively low membership. Let's call a third of our members or, say, 350 people, "active", and imagine that they all joined up. At $40 each, that's just $14,000 dollars a year to promote events. That's one small Con. Easier to organize the Con, and charge the $40 at the door. To get things going on a larger scale, we'd need to be able to accmulate a much larger membership.

I think worrying about putting a big con together up front is kinda putting the cart before the horse. You might want to work on getting things organized at the local level building upwards from there. Small local cons can be run for next to nothing.

QuoteSo, any ideas how that could be done to expand membership while not damaging the community? This is why I'm thinking that a Forge Auxilliary or somethign might be more appropriate. Somewhat like how Indie Net-gaming is associated informally right now.

Another thing you might consider is working out deals with indy designers and companies to to give out swag to volunteers in exchange for them donating their time to run to games. This would provide a benefical service to the designers in that it would mean their games are getting demoed in places they would never get the chance to do it themselves and gives some added incentive to help get volunteers to run the events.

Alan

Quote from: Mike HolmesBut seriously, I woudn't be surprised if Ron actually thought that this was a bad idea. He and I have some differences of opinions over the results of the whole Big 5 essays thing.

He seems to have a gift for non-directive leadership.  I don't think I  could have launched a series of posts like his without having a goal in mind.  Maybe his only goal is for the community to address the issue - very commendable.

QuoteI wonder how the game stores would react. Should be a positive thing, I'd think. But I'm not entirely convinced. Sounds mostly like we'd be attracting the current game crowd in. As opposed to outside recruitment.

Gack!  Of course it would be for attracting the current game crowd.  The club needs to live before it can make any formal attempt at outreach to non-rpgers.  My vision is a better organization for existing gamers.  A successful organization would increase visibility and be able to attract new people to the hobby.  The other way around would be, as you say, difficult.
- Alan

A Writer's Blog: http://www.alanbarclay.com

Irmo

Quote from: Alan
Second, how to grow.  Well, Forge members are spread throughout the US and some of the world.  I perceive that many Forgers would agree that local events are an important element of a club.  Forge members could recruit locally.

As an example, Clinton, Mark, Matt, Jeff, and I (and few others) are all connected in one way or another with the informal Seattle Gamers Assemble.  The last few Monday's we've had an exciting little "open Game Night" developing at a gamestore.  Some of us have even mentioned presenting a zero-budget, mini indie-con.

Such an event would be a place to kick off recruitment.  If many such events took place in the coming year in the different cities which Forgers occupy, the organization would grow.  If the new members actually find benefits in being a member, then it'll grow by word of mouth.  Build it and they will come.

I think this is where I should drop in with a bit of info on how the club in Germany developed, having received the information.

Since the mail was occasionally quite amusing, I'll simply translate it. One note, though, the author is an Ex-member, who left the Guild a while ago, somewhat disillusioned:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Weeell, back in the Glory Days when Fighter still were real Fighters, and female Clerics real female Clerics, and dark dungeons filled with orcs, designed by Gary Gygax were still dark dungeons filled with orcs designed by Gary Gygax,

...it came to be that some folks in the Rhineland region, especially the city of Duesseldorf, coined the strange idea to form a club called 'Master's must', which got its name from the idea that all the poor GMs also wanted to be a player once in a while and not just 'master' the game all the time.
Well, after two or three meetings, the whole affair died again.

However, some participants, many from Cologne, regretted that fact and scooped up the ashes of "Master's must" and formed a new club, the "Guild of Fantasy-Roleplayers" on a gamer meeting in Cologne.

Back then (1987), cons were pretty rare, and not widely known, especially pure RPG cons, and these events organized by the Guild were the engine for a dramatic membership growth (The numbers, of course, not the members -well, some of them, too, in width ;) )

One incentive for that were certainly the goods and services provided by the Guild for its members: Free entry on all guild-Cons, (and free participation in all gaming rounds, not just for guildmembers) as well as (theoretically) four times a year the journal "Windgefluester", that (in all modesty) especially due to the endeavors of a restless editor-in-chief reached a level that met or surpassed that of professional magazines. Also, the club and the magazine always stayed independent of publishers and other interest groups.

The whole was driven by people who hoped to form the guild into an umbrella organization in which all people interested in the fantastic could find their interests represented. First and foremost roleplayers, but also tabletop gamers, fantastic literature and movies, later also LARPs, etc

The large number of members (over 600 in its prime) lead to subgroups being formed under the umbrella of the top-level club, organized either thematically (task forces) or regionally (local chapters). The idea behind the latter was to make the Guild the umbrella over regional dependencies.

As we know by now, it didn't quite work out. An organization of that size brings with itself that it can't just be managed on the fly, especially not by creative visionaries (read: chaotic slobs ;) ) who abhor administrative work. The leadership of the Guild eventually drifted from the founders who, in the meantime, were either burned out or drifted into family life, to people who thought to be able to get a better grip on things. Which they could, without a doubt, but they lacked the vision for new ideas. And since stagnation is death, the long slide down began. Although other causes of course were the Magic:The Plague...errmm the Gathering shock, and the fact that the generation of Nintendo-Kids was hard to motivate to contribute to something like the Guild.

But you wanted to know how it started, not how it went down the drain, so I better stop now... :) "
---------------------------------------------------------------------


So, if the goods and services are right, it shouldn't be too much of a problem to gather members by local recruiting and increasing the number of members independently of any internet site. Occasionally, one member or the other will move for job or family related reasons, and maybe open a new chapter at his new location. Starting small doesn't mean one can't be large eventually, and I think the internet does a lot to facilitate logistics even over a great distance.

Ron Edwards

Hello,

I seem to have been invoked here once or twice ...

Anyway, I'd love to see a club such as Irmo describes get started. I'd also think that the Forge wouldn't be it, but could very well interface with it, in terms of appropriate forum topics and articles here. Certainly the two activities could serve as membership-feeders for one another.

Best,
Ron

Mike Holmes

Well, that sounds good.

Next question. Anybody interested in the duties? :-)

That's, of course, the hard part. Such an organizaton is going to be only as good as the leaders who direct it. Which, of course, takes time and commitment.

We can talk about such a club in theoretical terms until we're blue in the face, but that won't ever produce any actual play. :-)

As long as we are theorizing, however, I would assume that the club charter would be fairly strictly limited to RPGs? Indie RPGs? If so, you need a tight definition.

Mike
Member of Indie Netgaming
-Get your indie game fix online.

Alan

Hi Mike et al.,

I started two new threads: one on the scope and mission of a large club, and one on creating a healthy foundation.

I'd be happy to take on some responsibilities.  However, it's exhausting to organize a group without a sufficient distribution of workload.  We would need an growth committee of ten or twenty energetic contributors just to begin with - and an active effort to bring more people in to help as they join.
- Alan

A Writer's Blog: http://www.alanbarclay.com