Playing the opposite gender?

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Here's a quick paraphrase of a section in the upcoming supplement, Sex & Sorcery, about this very issue.

Point #1 - in many cases, it may be a non-issue. Authors, directors, and creative people of all sorts include characters of the other gender in their works. A role-player (GM or player) may well be in this exact situation, with the same aesthetic limits, difficulties, and conditions. In this case, a given person would play the off-gender character well or badly, and that's the end of the issue - it's a competence issue, essentially.

Point #2 - what about habitual play of off-gender characters? Especially if they're always very similar? Especially if a specific agenda does seem to be involved? I think that sometimes this occurs, often enough for me to have spotted a pattern or two.

- male player plays female characters in order to express and identify with very focused, very stressful themes of alienation and "outsider"-ness. [See Carol Clover's Men, Women, and Chainsaws for an awesome theoretical framework for this issue, relative to slasher and other B-movies.]

- male player plays female characters in order to ... um, basically to masturbate publicly. The female characters are "dream girls" for him and the role-playing venue means that he gets to play with imaginary dolls of them.

- female player plays male characters for access to power, in light of her perception that either in general or in this particular game-group, female characters are deprived of power or significance (read: de-protagonized).

- female player plays male characters as a defense against socially dysfunctional play, specifically that kind of play in which a female character's actions are constantly scrutinized, commented on, and acted upon by male players as come-ons or statements of potential sexual interest by the female player.

Best,
Ron

[Ziriel]

Hmm.. there iz a lot of interesting stuff being said in here.  One thing I'm finding interesting iz that a lot of guys are saying that they don't play female PCs, yet I'm not hearing much about women not playing male PCs.  (Or iz it just we have less women in our groups therefore it's harder to include their characters in our discussion...?) Are women less uncomfortable with playing the opposite sex?  If so, I have to wonder why.  Hmm...

I feel I should share a little bit about my own group. We are a group of six and we each have 2 characters.  I am the only female player.  Four of us have a character of each gender, myself included.  One of my players, a man, has two female characters.  The other player, also a man (but oddly enough a gay man), has two male characters.  So, we come up evenly split.  After reading through all the posts on here I realize that my group may be somewhat on the unusual side since it has so much crossgender playing.

In my group the ability to play a character of the oppsite sex accuratly seems to be pretty evenly split.  I've been told that I can play men well, and I believe that to be true (my favorite characters have indeed been men).  Crucial's female character iz spookily convincing.  My player with two female characters has one convincing female character and the other one iz a flat bubblehead like stereotype (think Cameron Diaz in Charlie's Angels and you are close). The other two female characters with male players are also somewhat problematic in that one of them has no female qualities at all (the player himself has said that he just has a hell of a time wrapping his brain around trying to play a girl, yet he still plays the character week after week), and the other iz a downright slut (similar to the hooker with a heart of gold stereotype).

Now my question here iz how can we help people to play the opposite sex more convincingly, and hence (in my opinion) help people become better roleplayers?  Iz it even possible?  Do we even care?  (It's quite possible that we may not care, as playing stereotypes appeals to many people.)  And, on a more personal level, do you think my group iz unusual or actually rather typical?

[Eric J.]

I'm sorry, but I've been trying to post this all day:

Hey Jack.  I made a bad post, but I think that its ideas can be clarified to better justify my opinion.

Quote:
It's just that evidence compells me to think that male/female thought procecces are funamenally different from a physiology of the brain point of view.

What is this evidence of which you speak? In my personal experience, and I'm not talking about men & women here, but whenever someone has a different way of thinking, even slightly, it tends to throw people off. I think that some of the Euro Forge members can tell us about talking with Americans, or some of the Americans can tell us about talking with people from other countries. I can tell you that some of my Euro friend just plain seem to be wacky. I would suspect a fundamental difference in the physiology of their brains, but I doubt that's what it is.

There are some phisiological differences.  For example:  There are stronger connections between the two lobes in women than in men.  This helps explain why women move around on different topics more often.  

Example: Look at modern plays (meaning any that are performed today. I'm looking at contemporary styles which means that Greece and Romeo & Julet are equally applicable). Nearly the only time that people take upon different genders is for comedy. Now don't give me that "it's more convenient from a design standpoint" crap. Say they're looking for the roles of umm, Frodo Baggins. You either half to admit that males are adept to playing male rolls or you have to say that the special effects weren't good enough to cover the actors gender. The example is an oversimplification, but it does (I hope) bring an interesting point.

You are losing me big time here. Weren't *all* roles were played by men in ancient Greece and in the days of Shakespeare? Did you see Shakespeare In Love?

No.  I've never seen that movie, but I was quite aware of that fact.  I think that such should be mostly discarded because the absence of women was almost entirelley to promote the social structure that existed.  

As to the Frodo Baggins comment, you need to remember there is a difference between film and stage. Film is about looks, a lot about looks. Actors who burn up the stage in a role like, say, Hamlet would never get to play it in a movie because they don't "look the part" to some casting director. I am not sure why this is except that a movie is a recording that will be played over and over again, and thus they try to make it perfect, or as perfect as they can get it, anyway. I don't think it's fair to compare RPGs to film. RPGs in play are closer to stage IMO. One magical performance and then...poof.

Good point.  The whole last thing that I said was thrown in as an afterthought.  My fault.  I'm simply saying that the times when actors have an alternate sex for a part it is almost always for comic purposes.

[Ian Charvill]

In other words, playing an NPC female who is detailed and intricately part of the lives of the PC's is not particularly different in my experience from playing a PC female. In some ways, the NPC can be more involving, as I may well be putting a lot more thought into how this person acts and reacts in relation to the other characters, whereas the PC is more focused on my reading of that person individually, with relationships happening (or not) depending on the other characters.

To me, the difference between playing and NPC and a PC is that I would always be ready to drop an NPC if play drifts away from them - the level of attachment is much less.

If I were to play a PC female and mess up, I'd have to make a new character; if I were to play a female NPC and mess up, then the NPC can be discarded as easily as the stableboy.

My comments should explicitly be considered in the context of deciding to play a female character or not.

[Alan]

Hi all,

I'm always a little mystified when male RPGers make a huge deal out of player female characters.  If there's anything I've discovered over years of trying to play "in character", it's that I my natural preferences don't match those of many characters I play.  I'm not surprised when I have trouble remaining the strong silent type or the suave secret agent, so why should I be surprised when I can't maintain a "female" character?  Is there some higher standard for playing female characters?

Can a man understand a women?  (And vice versa?)  I find numerous examples in the real world and in authors of fiction that some can and some can't.  Also, when I look, I see that some real women have personalities more like stereotypical males and vice versa.  There's wide ranges of variation.  There may be tendencies and shared experiences leading to certain shared concerns among most individuals of a given sex, but these processes are familiar to all of us, even if the details are different.  I can't believe that there is one true way to be a woman or a man.

[John Wick]

Off-shoot from the Sexism and Gaming thread.

Is playing a character of the opposite gender a really bad idea? I can see it being bad because participants might end up falling on cliches and stereotypes, and just being really insulting and stupid.

(Forgive me, I've only read this post -- not the entire thread -- and felt the need to say:)

Don't people do this playing characters of the same gender?
What's the diff?

[Maurice Forrester]

One thing I'm finding interesting iz that a lot of guys are saying that they don't play female PCs, yet I'm not hearing much about women not playing male PCs.  

In my current game group, I can think of several times when female players have played male characters, but no examples of males playing female characters.  We're a mature group and tend to be pretty progressive politically, but I think we're still constrained by societal notions of the man as the norm and the woman as "the other."  

I don't think I've ever played a female character.  Lately, I've been thinking that I should as one way of forcing myself to grow as a player but unfortunately I rarely get the chance to play these days.  As a GM, I often play female NPCs but I think there's a certain sameness to many of my female NPCs.  I have been told, however, that I have a knack for running grouchy old women.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Amos,

I'm wondering whether this thread is really addressing your concerns when you began it. It's interesting & all to see how various people react to the topic as a general thing, but that's not going to yield a critical conclusion in the way that threads should, especially in this forum.

So ... one thing you asked was,
"Is it necessary or desirable to play a female character from a female player perspective?"

This puzzles me greatly. I presume you are suggesting (or theorizing) that a male player puts on a "female perspective" mask or role, then role-plays the character in that context. On the one hand, this sounds like nothing more nor less than what a male novel-writer does in order to write a female character; on the other hand, it sounds extremely squirrelly and potentially even self-abnegating.

Can you give an example of doing what you have in mind so I can see which "hand" is involved, or if I'm off-track entirely?

Best,
Ron

[Alan]

Lately, I've been thinking that I should [play a woman character] as one way of forcing myself to grow . . .

It's not that painfull.  I've been playing both men and women PCs since I started in the hobby.  In my early days with D&D, playing a warrior woman was a way of standing out from the crowd, just as playing an Elf or Dwarf was for others.  (Also, it allowed me to be "just a human" - even back then I knew that I wanted a character, not a collection of powers.)  

I've had the experience of a GM raping my character too - and the other players joining in. The GM insisted on rolling for pregnancy.  Humiliating.  Still, I found players who weren't so juvenile and continued playing women when it suited me.  Still do, though less often - there was an element of sexual/social fascination with the warrior woman archetype that I've grown out of.

[M. J. Young]

...Is playing a character of the opposite gender a really bad idea? I can see it being bad because participants might end up falling on cliches and stereotypes, and just being really insulting and stupid.

...Don't people do this playing characters of the same gender?
What's the diff?

I think this is an excellent point; but I also think there may be a difference.

If you play a character of your own gender as a cliche or stereotype, or even if you're not intending to do so but you mess up, you might be thought a bad actor, or you might be thought pretty funny, or you might be thought lame, or even just that you're not interested in developing the character.

But if you are in a mixed gender playing group and you play a character of the opposite gender badly, or cliched, or stereotyped, what are the reactions? You are likely to be viewed as sexist if your portrayal winds up less flattering of the opposite gender; or clueless if your portayal fails to have any depth. In any event, playing a character of the opposite gender may involve a certain social risk, as however you do it will be viewed as your understanding of what that person is like.

I mentioned somewhere not so long ago a game we played at the suggestion of my second son. The seven of us (Mom, Dad, five sons aged 19 to 10) put our names in a hat and then drew them out, each of us playing someone else in the family in a household LARP. I actually recommend this. We got to see what we look like to each other. My number three son, who drew me, immediately went into my office, typed on the computer, and periodically called out, "Don't make me come out there." My number four son, who drew the eldest, got on the other computer in the livingroom and ignored everything going on around him.  I drew the youngest, and after being annoying I threw a fit and went to my room--where my wife, playing number four, proceeded to jump on me, and my second son, playing my wife, tried to find out what was wrong and persuade me to come out and be with everyone. It was very enlightening. Yet at the same time it was rather embarrassing for all of us, being portrayed not as we see ourselves but through the more observable peccadilloes of our actions. It would be very easy to be insulted by such play, were it not that we had all agreed up front to the activity.

Now, take away that safety net, take away the familial trust and understanding, the familiarity of close relationships, and let one player play cross-gender, and you may have a flammable situation. Almost any way you play it, someone may be offended at your choices; certainly someone will argue that you're not playing the part realistically no matter how much depth you give it. Is Hester Prynne (Scarlet Letter) believable as a woman? She is to me; but I'm a man--what do women think of her? What of (LotR's) Eowyn? Sometimes you're going to do something which is stereotypical of the gender; when you do, that doesn't mean necessarily you're out of character--in fact, you may have to choose between acting out of character and being stereotypical, if the obvious thing is the thing the character would probably do. But then you run into the social problem either way--either you didn't act like "she" would, or you didn't make her a real person.

I never had these problems in the groups in which I played; but then, I'm the sort of person who wouldn't much care what others thought of me--and in general, I'm not regarded as sexist or anything (at least, not in person) so the way I play women doesn't come under so much scrutiny perhaps.

So maybe there's a difference, at least in some groups.

--M. J. Young

[Emily Care]

Are women less uncomfortable with playing the opposite sex?If so, I have to wonder why.

One of Ron's example of "habitual off-gender players" relates to this:

- female player plays male characters for access to power...

Women often become adept at identifying with male protagonists.  Men are not encouraged to do the same since female protagonists are 1) less common and 2) often portrayed as less powerful than their male counterparts. Female protagonists are more common in romantic comedies and many dramas, which are dismissed as chick-flicks.  

If a woman wants to get the vicarious escapist thrill of an action movie, unless they are watching a Michelle Yeoh film, or Alien, they have fewer female charaters with which to identify. Females in male dominated action movies are quite often not only less powerful, but end up getting killed or victimized.  Yay us.  Look at movies from the same perspective with respect to race and you get a very similar dynamic.

And, on a more personal level, do you think my group iz unusual or actually rather typical?

Your groups gender distribution of characters sounds quite similar to that of my current and some of my past groups. These groups were pretty darn unusual.  My other play group  that played more "straight" single gm'd adventure stories had male players who always played male characters, and female players who played either gender about equally.  

Something that struck me about the description of your group, Ziriel, is that your members play multiple characters. My non-trad groups have always done this, and strangely enough, that in itself seems to be rather unusual.  

(quoted out of order)

Now my question here iz how can we help people to play the opposite sex more convincingly, and hence (in my opinion) help people become better roleplayers?  Iz it even possible?  Do we even care?  (It's quite possible that we may not care, as playing stereotypes appeals to many people.)

There seem to be a variety of positions represented by posts on this thread.  For my part, it's hard to imagine limiting myself to one gender.  This whole conv' has gotten me thinking about it, and I've got a little game I'm working on that addresses the issue.  

--Emily Care

[Ziriel]

In my current game group, I can think of several times when female players have played male characters, but no examples of males playing female characters. We're a mature group and tend to be pretty progressive politically, but I think we're still constrained by societal notions of the man as the norm and the woman as "the other."

I don't think I've ever played a female character. Lately, I've been thinking that I should as one way of forcing myself to grow as a player but unfortunately I rarely get the chance to play these days. As a GM, I often play female NPCs but I think there's a certain sameness to many of my female NPCs. I have been told, however, that I have a knack for running grouchy old women.

The bit about women being "other" seems to be a stance I have observed before, and vice verse with men being "other" to women.  Sometimes it iz easy for me to forget this since most of my friends are/have been men and are thus familiar (sometimes much more so than women believe it or not).  Don't make yourself play a woman if you have no desire, but if I were you I would play a grumpy old woman if you get the chance.  Sounds like you may have a great time.

Women often become adept at identifying with male protagonists. Men are not encouraged to do the same since female protagonists are 1) less common and 2) often portrayed as less powerful than their male counterparts. Female protagonists are more common in romantic comedies and many dramas, which are dismissed as chick-flicks.

Ahh, that iz so true. The answer seems so obvious now that I can't believe I didn't see it.  I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Your groups gender distribution of characters sounds quite similar to that of my current and some of my past groups. These groups were pretty darn unusual. My other play group that played more "straight" single gm'd adventure stories had male players who always played male characters, and female players who played either gender about equally.

Something that struck me about the description of your group, Ziriel, is that your members play multiple characters. My non-trad groups have always done this, and strangely enough, that in itself seems to be rather unusual.

It's good to know that we aren't alone even if we are unusual. I have to wonder if playing mulitiple characters helps facilitate playing the opposite gender as you as a player have an opportunity to have "one of each".

MJ Young:  I really enjoyed your example of your family's roleplaying exercise.  I thought it summed up things very nicely as to why playing the opposite gender can be so volitile.  It doesn't apply just to the opposite gender either (even though that's the point of this thread).  My group has talked about playing each others characters in an attempt to show how different people percieve them.  We abandoned the idea after deciding that it could easily lead to hurt feelings even though we try our damndest to be mature about such things.  Like I said, an excellent example of how you need to be aware that playing a character that has a connection to another player that you yourself do not possess (gender, class, religion, etc.) can lead to being offensive (accidentally or not).

Oh yes, one more thing:

I've had the experience of a GM raping my character too - and the other players joining in. The GM insisted on rolling for pregnancy. Humiliating. Still, I found players who weren't so juvenile and continued playing women when it suited me.

How horrible!  I keep hearing about this happeneing and count myself very fortunate to have never had it happen to me.  Although I feel I must mention that one of the characters in my game iz a rape survivor which was the decision of the player and has led to some very excellent roleplaying.  (My group iz very into exploring character and quite Sim.) I hope that this happened when you were younger...it wouldn't excuse it but it would make my head spin less.  We all know how twisted youth can be.  (Tearing the wings off bugs anyone?)  You are a brave man indeed for playing female characters again after that.  Kudos.

Thanks to everyone participating in this thread.  The input has been invaluable.

[Emily Care]

(My group iz very into exploring character and quite Sim.)

Aha! Mine, too.  The similarities make even more sense.

--EC

[Seth L. Blumberg]

In a recent Vampire campaign in which I played, the two female players both played male characters, not something for which either of them are known in our group. My best guess is that the Camilla/Lamia image of the seductive female vampire was so overwhelming that neither of them (being new to Vampire) could imagine a female character outside that framework, within which they didn't want to play. (This falls under Ron's category of "female plays male for access to power," I suppose, if only loosely.)

As for male players playing female characters, Ron is missing a category: males using gaming as a therapeutic tool for dealing with gender identity issues. I've seen instances of this with both M->F transgendered players, and male players with non-transsexual gender dysphoria. This is not quite the same thing as the "public masturbation" category, since these players are not nearly as likely to have their characters engage in sexual behavior.

[Blake Hutchins]

Hmm.

"Is it necessary or desirable to play a female character from a female player perspective?"

Necessary?  I don't think so.  Admittedly, your group might have social contract issues that mitigate otherwise, but the interpretation of what makes up a female perspective varies with your audience.  Since a lot of "perspective" is internalized, motivations for player decisions may not map clearly to a masculine or feminine root cause.  Consequently, there seems to me to be an enforcement issue unless your female character player is grossly stereotypical or openly male-thinking in his portrayal.  Further, I've had stories critiqued in which men assert that my female point-of-view character was too male, and women tell me my depiction was bang-on feminine.  Who's right?

Let me offer an example I hope is pertinent.  In Ars Magica, I once played a woman who wanted more than anything in the world to be a knight.  Accordingly, she dressed and acted as a man, concealing her gender from the world.  It's a classic archetype (think Mu-Lan), and I had a lot of fun with it, but I was essentially playing a man in a woman's body.  Had that game gone on long enough, I'd likely have explored women's issues and sexuality more deeply, since doing so would have upped the stakes dramatically for this particular character.  Was it necessary for me to play her from a female perspective?  Absolutely not.  Would the experience be the richer if I were to work that perspective into play?  Undoubtedly.

Is it desirable to play from a female perspective?  Sure.  From a Sim standpoint, doing so affords players the opportunity to explore gender-specific issues.  Motherhood, for example.  Patriarchal disenfranchisement, for another (though in my experience most RP worlds are pretty egalitarian in this wise).  If the setting is harsh enough to force players to confront gender specific issues, well, that's another story.  The flip side to the original question might be: is it desirable to present a setting that puts severe restrictions on females Yes, I say, if such a setting is what your group wants to explore.  I suppose it could hold a certain pedagogic appeal.

Does playing from a female perspective tend to raise the stakes for the female character and offer different dramatic opportunities?   I answer yes to this as well, and point again to my Ars Magica example above.  I'm obviously assuming that exploration of gender issues provides a compelling end in itself, but this assumption comes from my belief that differences between male and female perspectives lead to innate dramatic tension that can be exploited by the group to make a richer story, the more so if the setting exacerbates inequality of power.  And yes, I'm wearing my N priority on my sleeve when I talk about dramatic tension and such.  I'm partial to characters who carry enough inherent conflict to be their own Kickers.

As I write this, I wonder how this discussion would play out regarding a strongly matriarchal setting that systematically disenfranchises males.  Has anyone tried that kind of exploration?

Best,

Blake