Challenging Players Notions

[prophet118]

thats a load of crap, so i altered the system, customizing it to the group of people i run it for..

It's not a load of crap. Read the essay, yet?

Do you play chess? Do you ever modify it so that it's more of a "proper" RPG? The Dungeon Boardgame? Rune is designed to be played like chess, or a boardgame, or wargame. You are out to beat the other players, and win the game. You do this by selecting the best armor and weapons as the game says they exist, and putting forth your best tactical effort.

I'm not just saying that Rune should be "Hack n' Slash". I'm saying that anyone who attempts to say anything in-character while playing Rune is missing the point of the game. It is, in no way, shape, or form about making a story. It's about winning, plain and simple.

You are making the same mistake that your players are making. To you, this sort of play "isn't role-playing". But that's just not true. Some people, including the designers of Rune, I'll wager, think this is a valid and time honored style of play. It's just one that you don't like, or understand. Big difference. Not all role-playing has to be about story.

So you're taking a game designed for people who are not like you, and trying to make it fit your style. This is a big waste of effort, IMO. Why not just play a game that does support the style that you're interested in? Like TROS? Interestingly, your player's style may be one that's more supported by Rune. Are you sure that you're doing them a favor by changing it?

Your players are doing the same thing with TROS from the other side of the table. They are assuming that their style of play is the "one true way" to play RPGs. And you want to shake that up. Fine. First I suggest casting off some of your presuppositions on what an RPG is, or is not.

Mike

sigh, i see you have yet to grasp a simple cocept, let me try one last time...

first off, i play with several groups, and for the games i run, i recruit the players that i feel would get the most out of the system, and have the most fun, secondly, yes the game was run for the first 3 sessions as it was in the book, get this, the players i had chosen for the game system (most hack and slashers) absolutely hated the system, and gave me a list of things they wanted changed, so i changed them... end of story, i kept the players happy.... they gave a small list of things that needed changing, and i did, but i also looked at other things, including taking a poll of who would wanna run it... no one ever said they would... even though you get a victory point penalty if you dont run.....

this will be the last time im going to make a comment about rune... except to say, have you even played the damn game?

[Mike Holmes]

this will be the last time im going to make a comment about rune... except to say, have you even played the damn game?

Yes, I've played.

I probably jumped the gun on my assessment of you and/or your group. But from what you wrote, it seemed that your objections came from you, personally, and a feeling that things weren't at all "realistic". Which isn't at all the purpose of Rune. Again, if this is the objection to the game, by yourself, or any participants, and if they don't see why one would want to rotate playing GM, then they're missing the point of the game.

Anyhow, apologies if I've put you off with my snap analysis (I do that a lot). But I still think that it sounds like your group would do well to discuss what it's preferences are, and come up with a consensus on what sort of game you'd all like to play. Until then, you'll have intra-group conflicts, and play of games that involves a whole lot of tweaking that just isn't neccessary.

Mike

[prophet118]

well like i said, i ran the game as intended, even had encounters drawn up so they wouldnt have to, everything was going fairly ok.. one player did get killed because of a lucky goblin, the player decided to jump over the small underground stream, and couldnt see across the thing.... the torch was being held by someone way in the back, he jumped across, and landed in front of a goblin, who attacked him, i rolled a 45 on my attack, he rolled a 13 on his defense, i dropped that character fairly quickl, and he swore off the game... now i didnt alter anything rule wise that was used in that scenario ... however that player wants me to drop the thwack margin...which wont be happening..

however as we are playing through the encounters, the players noticed things that didnt like, and since one of the nifty little things is "The Book Of Iron Law", i took their ideas and objections under consideration, and came up with some interesting solutions, they all agreed on them..


the solutions basically came out to

single GM (me)
have a more balance system for missile combat (and dont make it so blatant on the screwing over part)
altering weapon stats to match what they should be (based on the other weapons in the game of the same type, and the definitions given for what each thing did (attack, defense, ETC)
i also added my own gifts into the mix (only 2 so far, one for stealth rolls, and the other as a kind of healing gift, similiar to "the knitting of meat and bone")
and i added story as the back bone, instead of "we must go kill more goblins"... theres a story, whats so strange about that?

[Mike Holmes]

...theres a story, whats so strange about that?

Nothing strange about it. You're just doing the same thing that most people do playing RPGs. You're adjusting the game to fit your stylistic needs. We refer to this as Drift. Nothing strange or wrong with it at all, per se. As long as your having fun, it's all cool.

But from the post you put up originally, it seems that not all is quite copacetic. In fact, the problem that you seem to have is exactly that which is what the theory that this entire website was built on adressing. It seems to me that you may be the sort of player who could really be helped by it.

But who knows. Maybe I've missed your problem entirely (woudn't be the first time).

Mike

[prophet118]

ok yoda....thanks for being vague there...i have no clue what the hell you just said...

[Mike Holmes]

Read the essay, young Padawan.

Mike

[Bankuei]

Prophet-

Basically it boils down to this.  People play games for different reasons, different games are designed for different types of enjoyment.  People tend to have problems/less enjoyment when either everyone is there for a different reason("I want a deep story/I want to kill things"), or if they are playing a game that is intended for a different purpose than the kind of enjoyment that they're looking for("I don't like Rune, it has no story").

What your initial post breaks down to, is that what you want and what your players want, and what the games you are playing, are not meshing smoothly.  What this means, is that you need to be absolutely clear on:

•what kind of play you're looking for
•what kind of play the other players are looking for(as individuals and as a whole)
•what kind of play the game you're using supports and encourages

Then find out where the friction is coming from.

Most of the complaints that I hear about TROS boil down to,"It doesn't do D&D as good as D&D does!"  No Duh.  That's why its a different game.  Its designed to work differently and play differently.  If your players still want D&D, then give them D&D.  

Again, you need to decide what sort of games you're looking to play, and find folks who like it.  Your current players are who they are, they have whatever conceptions and conditioning they have.  Don't be upset because they won't change, just find some different people.

Chris

[Mike Holmes]

Don't be upset because they won't change, just find some different people.

Last resort, Chris, last resort. There's still every chance that they can figure out a style they all enjoy.

Mike

[Lucien Black]

Last resort, Chris, last resort

Last resort indeed.  I personally live in a small community where gamers, or even those interested in trying the experience, are relatively rare.  Nor do I have the means to travel elsewhere on a regular basis.  Sometimes, circumstance dictates that you need to make do with the group you have.  Also, if you're friends outside of the game, then that alone may mean you don't want to find others.  When I first started gaming, I only had a small group of friends to play with, and some of us had very different ideas of what sort of game was desirable.  Now, I know more people and have more flexibility as a result, but compromise is still a necessity.  Like the man said, "Last resort."

Lucien

[Bankuei]

Ok, my bad.  Let me modify that statement-

Either look for folks who want what you want(and be clear about what you want, and what they want as well)

OR

Be willing to accept that you will have to compromise, and understand that the folks you have will not change, or will only compromise so far.

So, if you want to play certain games, and folks aren't willing to go there, then you'll have to make do and not complain.

Chris

[Jake Norwood]

Hey ya'll, I'm stepping in to moderate. This is a bit off topic anymore. Take it to GNS forum or tie it more into TROS.

And chill out some of you.

Jake

[prophet118]

well i was trying to keep it to challenging player notions of what a game should/could consist of... ya know some people think a perfect game is nothing but combat with a little story... stuff like that...

[Jake Norwood]

well i was trying to keep it to challenging player notions of what a game should/could consist of... ya know some people think a perfect game is nothing but combat with a little story... stuff like that...

And I think that's a *very* worthy topic. The whole Rune bit got on my nerves, and wasn't helping anyone. My house.

Anyway, please continue your very helpful discussion on challenging those notions. I, as others, found that one game of Inspectres, one of Call of Cthulu, and one of Sorcer suddenly changed the way they all looked at gaming. Try it. Do it all at once, in a day.

Jake

[Bob Richter]

TROS is great because for the person who is into playing a game, it provides a story-based reward system, which channels them in directions other than "kill everything in sight."

One or two of my players has been shocked when he finally killed the Gol Captain and he didn't get any kind of reward for it.

Others, who (frankly) are better munchkins, just got with it and figured out that their SAs are the key to "winning."

So, there's that angle taken care of. Gamists are happy as long as they're gaming. And they are.

Simulationists are treated to a world which is easy to relate to and explore. Seneschals have a lot of room to explore, too, as they get to fill in the gaps in Weyrth.

And Narrativists? Well, back to the SAs. They bind the whole works together. As long as your SAs are cool and coordinated, they drive the story through an interesting plot to a thrilling conclusion.

I introduced two of my buddies from other games to tRoS at 1 in the morning. They were back the next day begging for more.

To my knowledge, there are only a few very small groups of people who are actually lost causes.

[prophet118]

well it all comes down to how its introduced... i am going to be starting a game of TRos after the 1st of the year, all because i had a rather fun conversation with a friend of mine, who happens to hate the whole D20 stuff as a system...

hes been playing Imagine and Rolemaster lately...

right now hes in my mage game on fridays and is a fairly inventive player... the players i worry about are the ones who... well i dont know if i can even articulate it (and english is my native language!)...

you know those players who look at you when you describe some cool fantasy element, and you know they are wondering how much XP its worth, or when you are describing what the bad guy looks like, they jump the gun to kill it before anyone else gets the reward?... i dont really think of that kind of player as a munckin... its almost like all the ADHD people got together (well ok so i have ADHD, still)

they play and play these games, never fully letting you immerse yourself into the atmosphere, and look at it as though thats how its supposed to be, also by manipulating certain in game things, they make it seem as an in character play..

like for instance the barbarian who attacks the new player in the game...well maybe thats what a barbarian would do, but deep in your heart, you know the player is actually a very blood thirsty person, and was looking for a reason to beat someone up...

challenging player notions in TROs is going to be interesting for me..but i think once i get the majority of those kinds of players toned down, and hopefully help them to fully immerse themselves, we can have all sorts of fun.....


i truely think though, that the problem doesnt like in their skill, its obvious that rules lawyers and munckins know the system, and their skills... i think it more lies in the fact that they know its a game, and what they do doesnt matter.. so they never allow themselves to get into it...


course... this could just me an amazingly innacurate analysis.....lol