Tarot Card Based Game

[Mark Johnson]

Hello all,

I just typed "tarot" into the search here at the Forge and it shot out over 50 threads with the occurance of the word.  Obviously, the idea of a tarot based game is a common one.  My question is, does anyone know a game that actually uses tarot cards?

It seems that the cards could be used in every part of the game... character creation, randomized plot development, scene resolution, etc. etc.  It also is very evocative and comes with its own powerful imagery for setting building.   The idea of fate vs free will could also provide for a powerful premise as well.

One negative of tarot use is that it is "pervy" as all get out. (Was there ever any alternative nomenclature developed to "pervy"?)  But I figure that anyone who buys into the concept of a tarot game wouldn't mind this.  In fact, it would probably be one of the "selling points."

Yes, this is something I am thinking of developing.  But I would like to see what others have done with the idea before me to avoid creating a redundant game.  It seems like a real design challenge and there are many ways it could be done.  Would anyone be interested in seeing or playing such a game?

Thanks,
Mark

P.S.  Yes, I know that a game like this might reinforce negative notions relating RPGs with the occult.  I don't forsee this as a problem since the idea probably would only appeal to a very small subset of a very small hobby.  In other words, its not D&D and I don't live in hickville.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

They only game I know of off hand is Everyway, which uses a Tarot-like. Since regular playing cards are decended from the Tarot, you could probably chalk-up Castle Faulkenstein and other card-based games.

But this is only what I know, which is admittedly not much. Hopefully I have give you some ideas, though.

[Paul Czege]

Hey Mark,

The game Psychosis: Ship of Fools uses tarot cards. You can find the rules, minus the Ship of Fools scenario, http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/freerpgs/bykeyword/src/psychosis_rules.txt">here. There's a PDF scenario for the game floating around on the web as well. It's called The Gordian Knot. It's available http://www.eldritch.org/erskin/psychosis/">here on Erskine L. Meldrew's Psychosis site.

The http://www.thalcos.com/deusex.html">Deux Ex RPG also uses tarot cards.

Paul

[Mark Johnson]

Jack,

Thanks for the ideas!  I am marginally aware of both systems.  Everway seems to use its own customized deck.  I am wondering if anyone knows the reasoning for this?  Was it a matter of avoiding the Tarot for simplicity's sake or because of the negative connotations of the tarot.  Given that Everway seemed specifically marketed to the new age community, I am leaning toward the former explanation.  It is definitely a game I want to check out.

To the sophisticates here, I am aware that you probably think that card based games are a relic of the mid-90s.  I just seemed to miss that entire generation of games when they were originally released.  

What I do want to specifically avoid are task resolution systems where the cards are manipulatable random number generators/resources to be managed.  Not that I have a problem with that concept; it is just not what I am aiming for.

I more see the cards as providing plot turns and scene resolution in a narrative sense rather than...  "you drew a seven of swords... that combined with your sword attribute will allow you to succesfully find/disable the trap."  However, I also don't want a totally free-form interpretation based game (since that doesn't really require a game system to do).

Thanks,
Mark J

[Mark Johnson]

Paul,

Thanks for the tips on Deus Ex and Psychosis!  I was somewhat relieved to see that they could go such different ways with the mechanics (from each other and where I am going).   Has anyone seen these games in actual play?  Cards probably lend themselves to more gamist play; but that is not really what I am shooting for.

To me, the appeal of the Tarot cards is that they ignite the creativity of my visual intelligence.  To me the idea of pulling a card like the Hanged Man at the end of a climactic conflict seems much more evocative than a series of failed/succeeded task resolution rolls.  I do understand that I am in the minority on this issue though.

I will be mining those pdfs for ideas though.  It is interesting to see where they went with the cards.

Thanks,
Mark

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Everway seems to use its own customized deck.  I am wondering if anyone knows the reasoning for this?  Was it a matter of avoiding the Tarot for simplicity's sake or because of the negative connotations of the tarot.

I doubt very highly that it had anything to do with any negative connotations of the Tarot. Personally, I am puzzled by this statement. I wouldn't worry about any occult hoodoo or other people thinking such.

That said, I think Everyway has it's own customized deck because they wanted to make their own customized deck. I guess someone involved with the game, possibly Tweet had designed a game aid called "Whimsy Cards" which fullfils a similar function. I suppose it can be fun to make your own Tarot-like deck. It's a lot like developing your own myths.

To the sophisticates here, I am aware that you probably think that card based games are a relic of the mid-90s.  I just seemed to miss that entire generation of games when they were originally released.

I don't think card-based games are a relic of any time period. If anything, I think they have yet to come into their own

What I do want to specifically avoid are task resolution systems where the cards are manipulatable random number generators/resources to be managed.  Not that I have a problem with that concept; it is just not what I am aiming for.

In that case, you might want to pay more attention to Everyway than Faulkenstein IIRC

I more see the cards as providing plot turns and scene resolution in a narrative sense rather than...  "you drew a seven of swords... that combined with your sword attribute will allow you to succesfully find/disable the trap."  However, I also don't want a totally free-form interpretation based game (since that doesn't really require a game system to do).

OK, now were entering a much hairier area. I do wish I had a decent version of the Wheel available, but the last version got trapped on my old hard drive when that computer died.

I think, if I understand you correctly, that you don't want the card to just be stand-ins for dice-- numerical generators, but you also seem to be hesitant to accept a subjective resolution based on the cards. I should tell you that the resolution in Everyway can be very subjective. I have my doubts that you'll find something that is not, in a way, just like dice yetis still objective, if you get my meaning.

[Mark Johnson]

Jack!

Thanks for the encouragement here.  I am especially happy you think that the card concept is still viable since some of the older threads I looked at seemed kind of blase about the whole thing.

I am still pretty deep into brain storm mode; but this is where I am at.

NAME:  Right now, I am thinking of something like FATE: THE RPG or taking the name of a couple of cards and putting them together like THE WHEEL & THE WORLD.  I am totally open to suggestions from anyone on this.

PREMISE:  The world is essentially a random place but we create stories to make it meaningful.

PLAY:  Typical setup with GM and characters.  Each scene is set up by the GM, but the players can draw a card to try to effect essential facts and actions in the scene.  Each card grants a player a certain amount of narrative power.  The Wheel for instance might allow a player to narrate a stroke of good luck for his character, etc.  Some cards might allow the GM to narrate instead.  The Ten Of Swords might allow the GM to escalate the conflict in a scene to a total disaster for the character who pulled it.  Skill usage will be largely karmic, but the GM may ask that a player pull a card at anytime.

THE CARDS:  Each card will be assigned a simple narrative effect.  Either the GM or the other players may initiate a draw.

THE SETTING:  I have a load of ideas here, a simple search of the Tarot on Google pulls up tons of source material from Pythagoreans, alchemists, Jungian archtypes, paganism, etc, etc.  Or I could simply let it remain simply a narrative resolution device with little or no setting.  Any ideas?

This is all subject to change of course....  I am just throwing this out here and seeing what sticks/what interests people.  The hardest part will probably be capturing the essence of the cards in terms of game effects since interpretations of the cards can vary quite a bit.

Thanks,
Mark

[Michael S. Miller]

Hi, Mark.

This sounds pretty cool. My wife runs lots of Everway, so I'm rather familiar with its resolution system. I like the idea of subsituting Tarot, if for no other reason than their widespread availability.

Your setup looks like a good framework to build upon. If you wanted to get rid of the GM, you could have "scene setting" take place by a player drawing, say 3 cards, and having to incorporate their meanings into a scene. Or, you could suggest alternate Tarot decks (there must be a million of 'em) for different settings, and the player must narrate at least one element of the card's imagery into the scene.

I think I see where you're going with "good" cards being narrated by the player and "bad" cards by the GM, but consider that each character might have a strong suit as part of character creation. They narrate any draws in that suit, while the GM or another player narrates all draws in the opposing suit. The two off-suits might be: odd numbers narrated by GM, even numbers narrated by players, or some such. For the Major Arcana ... I'll think about it.

In general: Looks good. I'm interested.

[Bob McNamee]

I made an attempt at a  semi-roleplaying Tarot based game. It turned out more as a story telling game. I've stopped working on it since getting Universalis... since I can now do everything it could (including adding a gimmick for drawing Tarot cards to influence the game).

If you're interested it is available in my games area at
http://www.geocities.com/bob_mcnamee/

Bob McNamee

[Mark Johnson]

Bob: Thanks for the tip!  You definitely some great ideas in your tarot game.  I would be really interested to hear how you use the tarot in your Universalis game.  

Michael:  If I go the GMed route, I will still allow player narration, but I will probably place a fairly strong emphasis on setting.  The setting I have in mind will offer elements of Amber, Nobilis, Planescape, Everway and World of Darkness united by the visual imagery of the Tarot (hopefully this would end up being more focused than it sounds.  Major and even minor Arcana could represent actual deities and forces in the world.  If you draw the Fool, it could be metaphorical... or it could be that the Fool has actually taken an interest in your plight.  Alchemy and the elements would play a strong role in the setting and characters would be stongly archetypal.  The setting should be robust enough to support several different styles of play (from politics among the guilds and secret societies to the mythic quest cycles), yet still reinforce the central premise.

If I go the GM-less route, I imagine it might end up something like Universalis with a gimmick attached to each Tarot card.  There would be no established setting, etc.

It seems to me that the GMed game would require much more work (in developing setting details and integrating it with resolution), but might have some commercial viability as a niche game.  The GM-less is something that I would have more of a chance to develop to fruition.
Given the number of project that end up stillborn, a small, yet complete game is better than an ambitious, incomplete one.

To anyone:  Which game would you rather play?  Do you think either game has potential for continued actual play?

Thanks,
Mark

[Shreyas Sampat]

My thought is that with something as rich in imagery as the Tarot, you'd be much better off tyint it closer to the setting, as in your first idea.  A setting that's not strong enough to support such intensely Colored mechanics would, in my opinion, make your game into 'just something with weird mechanics'rather than 'that cool Tarot game'.

[Mark Johnson]

I did a bit of brainstorming last night with my deck.  Does anyone think that the following is fair implementation of my design goals?  Or am I going down a blind alley?

I decided to try to go for a sythesis between my two ideas:  heavy on setting, but GM-less and more storytelling oriented than role playing.

At the center of the game is the codex.  The codex first gives the basic description of the world, its history, its conflicts, etc.  But the bulk of the codex is made up of a card list.  Each entry has a picture of the card and a list of associations (personae, gods, events, locations, plot devices, items, themes, etc) connected with the card.  All these associations are followed by a short paragraph description.

At the begining of a game, each players is dealt seven cards.  One player starts the game by laying down a card.  He can use the card to start a narrative, in basic GM mode (setting the scene describing characters, etc).  The catch is the player must focus on one or more elements from the card's entry.  If he picks a location, he must make the location the focus of his description and action.  If he picks a character that character will be the focus of the plot.  The descirptions of the personae and locations will be minimal, and each player will be encouraged to provide their own take on them.  A card can provide multiple associations...

If an assassin and the assassin's guild are associated with a certain card, the player can choose to incorporate both into his scene.

At any time, another player may interject into a scene by playing a card and incorporating one of the associations of that card.  They can narrate the events of a scene as long as they at least incorporate some of the associations into the scene.  Let's say the King of Swords is associated with the leader of a certain noble house.  The player could play that card and introduce him or one of his close confidantes into the current scene in play.

Pretty quickly all players should have a card on the table and be narrating.  If a conflict arises between narratives each card is associated with a suit (pentacles etc.) and a numeric value reflecting the power of the card in this setting and determining who has the strongest card will be fairly simple (it is rock, paper, scissors plus number if they are in the same suit).  The strongest card wins the narrative conflict.

HOWEVER, a player can always pull another card out of his hand as long as they narrate a new association.  It is also possible for another player to add to the narrative power of another player.  Each player can have only one card in play at a time so the associations of the old card become pretty much public domain at this point.

Some cards such as the Wheel might also have metagame effects such as forcing another player to play a new card.

At some point all the players will have played all their cards.  At that point, the players can decided that the story's fate is sealed, at which point each player is bound by the last card that they played or they can choose to end the current scene, refresh their hands with seven new cards and continue the story with a new scene.

The setting will be flexible.  Their will be simple character description and location information (it is all set in the same city).  But it is expected that internal continuity will vary widely between games.  There will be rules for permanent player characters and campaign style play while retaining its highly storytelling nature.

The order in which the cards and the interaction of the different suits may offer something for gamist oriented players, but I assume that it will largely be a storytelling game with emphasis on a rich setting.

My questions are...  does having to refer to the book for each card and maintaing an association too distruptive?  Too restrictive?  

Does the resource management element with the cards make it too gamist for what is essentially a narrative game?  I actually see the cards being played tactically since there is really no way to predict what cards will be on the table when a conflict between players might erupt.

What kind of mechanisms could I put into place to encourage good storytelling and reinforce the imagery of the cards?

The book for this game would be a PDF, aprox 100 pages with each card getting a one page layout with a list of associations and descriptions, plus aprox 10 pages on general background and another 10 pages on game mechanics, examples, etc.

Be honest.  If you hate the design, let me know.  It is not at all playtested and I figure whether it flies or crashes and burns will largely depend on having the "right" kind of player.  Any ideas to make this thing work?  I will probably do most of my setting/design work at the begining of next year before writing it up and playtesting it; so I have a bit of time to hash this out.

Thanks,
Mark Johnson

[clehrich]

Hi.  New around here, but couldn't keep away.

I actually ran a game which used Tarot cards as a mechanic.  In one version, there was also occasional use of dice, where in the other, it was Tarot only.  Unlike your system, as I understand it, however, the cards were not in constant use, but only occasional.  

The game was a somewhat bizarre occult fantasy set in a very grimy Victorian London (Jack the Ripper's London, actually).  The cards were standard Rider-Waite cards, with pretty stock interpretations, except that the Major Arcana also had second-order in-game meanings, not immediately apparent to the characters or players (figuring those out was a big part of the game).

At any rate, a few comments from my experiences:

My questions are... does having to refer to the book for each card and maintaing an association too distruptive? Too restrictive?

Depends a hell of a lot on your players.  I found that players who knew a bit about Tarot and were willing to work found the system flexible and useful, and just "checked up" on their cards.  Now I was using stock interpretations (well, A. E. Waite, anyway), where I guess yours will be distinctive to the game.  I think it won't be restrictive or disruptive so long as people get their cards, then can think about them for a while as play goes on, and only then play them.  If you hand them cards and expect them to be played at once, I'd be pretty worried.

Does the resource management element with the cards make it too gamist for what is essentially a narrative game? I actually see the cards being played tactically since there is really no way to predict what cards will be on the table when a conflict between players might erupt.

I tried this a couple of ways, and I did find that a lot of pretty narrative type players actually still have some gamist urges, and like to do a little resource management stuff.  I do think that the cards have to be pretty tactical, unless there is some issue in the plot which entails that the characters actually have some analog of the cards in a literal sense.

What kind of mechanisms could I put into place to encourage good storytelling and reinforce the imagery of the cards?

My big thing here was that when you played a card, you had to interpret it in the current context, and then the rest of the group would more or less accept or reject the play.  I found that plays essentially never got rejected, but there would be a clear "feel" expressed.  This was not unlike the old Ars Magica whimsy cards, where someone would play, I dunno, the Knight of Swords to win a swordfight, and the interpretation would amount to, "Well, it's, like, a powerful guy, and, um, I'm powerful, and, like, so I win."  The feel in the group would be along the lines of, "Dumb play, but I guess we'll let it go."  So I would make it sort of marginally successful.  Whereas a really cool interpretation, especially one that wasn't directly personally helpful, would tend to get the group going, "Wow! Cool!"  And then I'd have that work really well.

Chris L

[Unsane]

The German version of Engel uses Tarot cards (and the German publisher might put out the rules on the net in English, so we don't have to use D20).

From what I understand, the player draws a tarot card, and the player and the GM collaborate to figure out what that card means in relationship to the story.