First Game, and Thoughts Thereof

[prophet118]

imagine, this whole rapier section spawned out of bob once again trying to show his opinion as superior (my opinion on that of course)...

simply because i chose at random to have the archers using a rapier as a side arm...lol

[contracycle]

I was wondering when I took a closer look; it has a "nominal" blade at about the last quarter.  But even blunt, the tip is probably dangerous as is.  You're right in that it's too heavy, but is still essentially thrusting.

[Jake Norwood]

I was wondering when I took a closer look; it has a "nominal" blade at about the last quarter.  But even blunt, the tip is probably dangerous as is.  You're right in that it's too heavy, but is still essentially thrusting.

Yeah, that's a serious thrusting tip on that. However, the fact that it has a "nominal" blade on the last quarter is common and correct--I'd be suspect of any european sword that was sharp from ricasso to tip, as the old masters reccomended sharpening just the last hand of the blade (because it's a cutting/chopping blade, not a draw-cut/slicing blade). It also looks as if the tip was made that pointy after the sword was finished, as a sort of modification, which wasn't uncommon back then.

I love this stuff.

Jake

[Bob Richter]

imagine, this whole rapier section spawned out of bob once again trying to show his opinion as superior (my opinion on that of course)...

Really?

And here I thought I simply PRESENTED my opinion.

[prophet118]

i suppose presenting doesnt prove a problem, we all present something, we usually preface it with "well this is my opinion", not "Rapiers are an unlikely backup weapon for an archer. The Rapier is strictly a duelist's sword. An Archer is more likely to be carrying a Short Sword or an Arming Sword."

im generally easy going, but that line came out like "well you made a poor choice, and furthermore this is how you have to do it"

the problem with opinions is that they are open for alot of interpreation, including, but not limited to how the reader is feeling at the time...

tis the problem with no actual speech, but text.

[svenlein]

it's a cutting/chopping blade, not a draw-cut/slicing blade

What is the difference between cutting and draw-cut?  Not in terms of the action (I assume I understand that), but in terms of effect:
Armor penetration (plates, chain, leather, clothing)
Skin penetration
Muscle penetration
Thick organ penetration
Lung penetration
Pulmonary system penetration
Bone penetration
(did I miss any other part of anatomy)
Odds of Glancing
Ability to direct to gaps in defenses
Ways in which damage is caused

My guesses!!!! (note GUESS):
Plate and chain - cutting more likely to succeed
Leather and clothing - cutting still more likely but less so
Skin - draw-cut more likely
Muscle, Thick organ, Lung - similar but since less of the force is into the body on a draw-cut penetration would be less (an less like to reach them since you often need to get through bone to reach some of the organs)
Pulmonary system - arteries and veins would be more likely to be severed with draw-cuts (if can get to them)
Bone - cut would have the advantage
Odds of Glancing more likely with draw-cut
Aiming for gaps - cut might have slight advantage since the strike is over a smaller area and momentum is more into body

Ways in which damage is caused:
Blood loss in draw-cut is more due to surface level damage due to artery cuts
Cuts get more of there blood loss due to body cavity hemorrhaging
Both can get blood loss from both surface wounds and body cavity hemorrhaging
Also cut are slightly more likely to cause disabling injuries since they probe deeper into the squishy nugget center and are more likely to get through the bone to chop off your arm (or at least break it).

Also I think draw-cuts MIGHT be easier to recover from and follow up after than cuts.  (I could be very wrong on this one, more so than other wrong things I've said so far)

I'm not proposing any rules, the rules are fine, I just want to know.

Jake, what are the different times cuts are more likely to be used than draw-cuts.  For example I believe cut-thrust sword were more often designed for cuts than katanas (let me note again I could easily be a stupid RPG play who knows nothing of reality).  Some katanas where designed more for cutting, I believe a larger number where designed for draw-cuts.  What in the history of these two weapons led one to prefer cuts (when not thrusting) more than the other who preferred to draw-cut.

Scott

[contracycle]

Accident, culture, the vicissitudes of metallurgy.  As I understand it, the katana should only be used with the draw cut; its specialised for that usage.  This, IMO, goes a long way to explaining the "mystique" of the katana - its not just the ophysical object, its the technique associated with it as well which makes it what it is.

[Jake Norwood]

Weeeelll...

This is a hot topic. THere's a book coming out that will detail just about every sword wound recorded in history later this year that would answer this with facts. Overall I'd say that sven's "guesses" are pretty good, and not worth debating over from my knowledge.

As far as primary sword functions go, it's like this:
Curved and sharp blade (eg. Katana): draw cuts
Curved and not as sharp blade (saber): draw cuts and chops
Straight blade, very rigid, no real edge (rapier, estoc): thrusting
Straight blade, rigid, very pointy, with a servicable edge (bastard sword, C&T): thrusting and cutting/chopping
Straight blade, not so rigid, servicable edge, not so pointy (longsword, arming sword): Cutting/Chopping, then thrusting, then slicing (= draw cut).

The cut and the point have always been used. The draw cut less so in European designs, mostly because it's not very good against any armors at all, requires intentional, careful edge-placement to really do damage, and won't disable a guy as quickly as losing an arm or puncturing a lung would. Notice that those swords good at draw-cuts are curved, which allows a fast mostion (like a chop) to be converted into a draw-cut with the curvature of the blade (this makes the Katana very effective at this kind of attack, AFAIK). Straight swords are capable of draw-cuts, but as a third option (behind cutting and thrusting).

Hope that helps.

jake

[Durgil]

There's a book coming out that will detail just about every sword wound recorded in history later this year that would answer this with facts.

jake

Would this be TFoB or are you referring to an actual reference book that you've heard of that will be coming out  this year?

And hey prophet, what's this all about?

imagine, this whole rapier section spawned out of bob once again trying to show his opinion as superior (my opinion on that of course)...

I'm just reading this post for the first time today, and I don't see anything in here that warrents your comment.  Am I missing something here?

Otherwise, This is an excellant subject.

[Bob Richter]

i suppose presenting doesnt prove a problem, we all present something, we usually preface it with "well this is my opinion", not "Rapiers are an unlikely backup weapon for an archer. The Rapier is strictly a duelist's sword. An Archer is more likely to be carrying a Short Sword or an Arming Sword."

One doesn't preface an opinion by saying "My opinion is" or "I think" or anything else so wasteful and self-referential. The reader can ASSUME that anything written is the opinion of the author, and nothing more.

I haven't noticed anyone contesting my opinion either. My point was that I haven't tried to prove my opinion, I've merely stated it. Not that it doesn't have hard and solid backing.

[prophet118]

There's a book coming out that will detail just about every sword wound recorded in history later this year that would answer this with facts.

jake

Would this be TFoB or are you referring to an actual reference book that you've heard of that will be coming out  this year?

And hey prophet, what's this all about?

imagine, this whole rapier section spawned out of bob once again trying to show his opinion as superior (my opinion on that of course)...

I'm just reading this post for the first time today, and I don't see anything in here that warrents your comment.  Am I missing something here?

Otherwise, This is an excellant subject.

you'd have to check the first page... see this thread was started by me, and the whole basis for it, was that i was letting people know how my first game went, and out of sleepiness, i had picked the archers side weapon, as rapier, and bobs response was "thats not a likely sidearm"...

not a big deal, i just think its funny

[prophet118]

i suppose presenting doesnt prove a problem, we all present something, we usually preface it with "well this is my opinion", not "Rapiers are an unlikely backup weapon for an archer. The Rapier is strictly a duelist's sword. An Archer is more likely to be carrying a Short Sword or an Arming Sword."

One doesn't preface an opinion by saying "My opinion is" or "I think" or anything else so wasteful and self-referential. The reader can ASSUME that anything written is the opinion of the author, and nothing more.

I haven't noticed anyone contesting my opinion either. My point was that I haven't tried to prove my opinion, I've merely stated it. Not that it doesn't have hard and solid backing.

actually alot of people use the typical IMO, but yes, anything posted by people would be considered their opinion, course even that train of thought could go too far...since jake is in charge.....lol.

anyways.

[Jake Norwood]

What'ya trying to say, eh!?

Heh heh...

The book I'm referring to is a rescource book coming out later this year. I know the author really well, so I've got an "inside track." I'm not sure when it'll be available.

Like everything in the publishing industry, it's late.

Jake

[prophet118]

yeh... publishing is kinda funky sometimes.... hopefully you guys dont get into the same problem that changeling got into... white wolf felt they werent making as muc money as they should....so they basically dropped the line

[contracycle]

yeh... publishing is kinda funky sometimes.... hopefully you guys dont get into the same problem that changeling got into... white wolf felt they werent making as muc money as they should....so they basically dropped the line

Thats perfectly respectable.  Publishing is not pro bono work.