Mush/Mux Design- musing at work

[Drew Stevens]

Ah, I love when my boss isn't in, leaves me a little to do, and I'm done before noon.  Time to muse and await a Muse.  Anywho :)

I've been involved/interested in online rpgs (specifically non-Mud Mu*s) for about five or six years now.  Today, I've been thinking, not for the first time, of starting one of my own.  

I opened up notepad and started to right the descriptions for rooms, sorta aimlessly.  When I suddenly started to think about what I was doing.  I was writing a building's interior.  Then the street that building was one.  Then an adjoining street.  Then another adjoining street, whch has another pertient building on it.

It suddenly occured to me how utterly silly this was. :)  As a tabletop DM, I would /never/ try and describe every street the players could walk down in a city.  Hell, I wouldn't even both to describe the street at all, unless it was important in some way.  But in a Mush, I was trying to recreate something that doesn't exist.

Rooms in an online game are stages for the characters to play out their stories within.  They provide a context.  But on every game that I've played on, they form an artifical constraint.  They impose a strong 'time linearity' aspect.  'I'm uptown, I couldn't get downtown in only five minutes'.

It seems like a better design would be to have a mini-OOC Area Nexus, which links to each of the stages in a given area, as opposed to strongly tying those stages in space and time to one another.  Or, put another way, the map of the grid would look like this
o   o
\ /
 o-o
/ \
o   o

Instead of this
o--o
|  
o--o
|\
o o

Anyone else have much experience with mush theory and design, as a subset of overall game design?  Are there advantages to a large, realistic grid that I'm missing?  Are you aware of any games that use this more free-form style of grid design?

[Kiriath]

Woohoo MU theory. :)

I think the main reason for using large worlds is that it feels more like a world- I had a chat with someone on Elendor and he told me that it allows for 'travel RP'.

I think both Elendor, the main Lord of the Rings MU, and AngrealMOO, a dead Wheel of Time one, have had the central hub idea. Even DragonsfireMOO has it.

The MUSH I now play on - Transformers: Lost Years - doesn't use it. I don't think all _need_ it. The thing to Lost Years, though, is that it has the entire sky and ground mapped out (http://tfly.betterbox.net/tfly/mapindex.html) on its homepage. The undergrond isn't, but that's referred to as a dangerous, labyrinthine place anyway, and it certainly seems that way.

Have a website? n.^ Add in a city map, maybe?

Kiri, an occasional nut for MUSH theory

[Drew Stevens]

Re: Travel RP
I thought of that, but it doesn't seem like a very good answer.  What would the problem be with having a 'Forest Path' stage/room, linked from the central Village Hub, as opposed to having every interveining chunk of forest mapped out?  If you want to rp being on the road (and that certainly can be fun), then it's an available option- but if you want to just skip ahead, you're free to do so.

Re: The Simulation of a World
I did think of that.  But, at the same time, I'm much more of the 'Bugger reality and rules if they're not stopping people from RPing' sort ;)  Apart from which, large grids tend to intimidate me at first- most games /don't/ map them very well (they'll either be an ASCII map telling you where the streets are, but none of the buildings- or a list of the 'hangouts', what street there on, but NO MAP!  *headbeating against wall*).  Further, even those that do map them out, large sections of the grid will tend to be ignored.  Roads with no buildings on them, for example- I usally just walk past.

Re: My Stuff
Oh good god, no.  :)  Like I said, this has been a passing fancy.  I bemoaned the various 'bad things' within the Mage System, and so corrected them a few months ago (Static magic is still a liddle broken, but overall, I'm MUCH happier... maybe I should post it online for ya'll to nitpick :)  For the past yearish, I've bemoaned the lack of a single sphere WoD Mage game (that is, a game limited to Mages, Sorcerers, and others.  No vampires, no shifters, no changelings, etc.)  These things are starting to intermix in my head.  ;)

Re: Other games
I shall have to check out Elendor, and see how they implement it then, before I can give a contrast/compare thingy :)  Question, though- would a player ever need to page you to ask where a relevant building in a given area is?

(Edit- Elendor does not use a system like this.  I just checked there.)

Along this line of thought, however- how large should a Grid be made?  Too small, and there's a problem of every scene getting overcrowded.  Too large, and your playerbase either diffuses, or ignores large chunks of grid.  Any thoughts?  I mean, clearly grid size is partially related to playerbase size, but how large should a grid be in the beginning?  And what sort of buildings should be included?  Only ones relevant to RP?  Or anything concievable?  ('Whatdya mean there's no grovery store on the grid?  Where do I go to eat?')

[Kiriath]

Re: Travel RP
I thought of that, but it doesn't seem like a very good answer.  What would the problem be with having a 'Forest Path' stage/room, linked from the central Village Hub, as opposed to having every interveining chunk of forest mapped out?  If you want to rp being on the road (and that certainly can be fun), then it's an available option- but if you want to just skip ahead, you're free to do so.

Nodnod! I'd rather RP than hunt and hunt and hunt for people while I maneuver through the maze of rooms :>

Re: The Simulation of a World
I did think of that.  But, at the same time, I'm much more of the 'Bugger reality and rules if they're not stopping people from RPing' sort ;)  Apart from which, large grids tend to intimidate me at first- most games /don't/ map them very well (they'll either be an ASCII map telling you where the streets are, but none of the buildings- or a list of the 'hangouts', what street there on, but NO MAP!  *headbeating against wall*).  Further, even those that do map them out, large sections of the grid will tend to be ignored.  Roads with no buildings on them, for example- I usally just walk past.

Reality and rules- if the descriptions rock with enough detail, it should feel like a world even withOut that many rooms, I'd think. n.n The important, most-used ones should be known- ChaosMuck has a "most popular rooms" feature that's Bloody Handy. Only trouble is, everyone goes there and the villains come in and the night gets chewed up.

Re: My Stuff
Oh good god, no.  :)  Like I said, this has been a passing fancy.  I bemoaned the various 'bad things' within the Mage System, and so corrected them a few months ago (Static magic is still a liddle broken, but overall, I'm MUCH happier... maybe I should post it online for ya'll to nitpick :)  For the past yearish, I've bemoaned the lack of a single sphere WoD Mage game (that is, a game limited to Mages, Sorcerers, and others.  No vampires, no shifters, no changelings, etc.)  These things are starting to intermix in my head.  ;)

o_o

Re: Other games
I shall have to check out Elendor, and see how they implement it then, before I can give a contrast/compare thingy :)  Question, though- would a player ever need to page you to ask where a relevant building in a given area is?

(Edit- Elendor does not use a system like this.  I just checked there.)

Along this line of thought, however- how large should a Grid be made?  Too small, and there's a problem of every scene getting overcrowded.  Too large, and your playerbase either diffuses, or ignores large chunks of grid.  Any thoughts?  I mean, clearly grid size is partially related to playerbase size, but how large should a grid be in the beginning?  And what sort of buildings should be included?  Only ones relevant to RP?  Or anything concievable?  ('Whatdya mean there's no grovery store on the grid?  Where do I go to eat?')

In the beginning, there probably shouldn't be too many; a Mu with a lot of hunting is a Mu without a lot of RP n.n I'd think you'd expand it as the playerbase expanded...

Curious thing is about Elendor, I think they did it to make it more like its material- "Tell us a story!" on every Darned Road... :>

The only ones that should probably be included are ones that could be used for RP, or, if and when the Mu expands, are mysterious or curious or unique and can create RP themselves. Objects and long-fallen ruins and things-across-the-ocean do that niftily :)

Bars and libraries and parks. Some things are simply done offstage :>

Kiri

[wraeththu]

A few years ago there was a Mage-Centric mush named ChantryMUSH that was around for a little while.  I only played their briefly and it never seemed to get off the ground, though the admins had great ideas.  

You might try to find it if you're still looking for a Mage Only Mush.

-wade j

[Drew Stevens]

Re: ChantryMush

Dead.  Dead and gone :(

Or, at the least, no one on OGR knows about it, nor does google.

Now, it was pointed out to me on TSC last night, that using the fan grid as opposed to the conventional grid design has the problem of lessening immersion- after all, it's harder to keep in mind what's ICly real when you just popped between The Street and The Bar by way of The OOC Nexus, and that most of the advantages may be maintained by simply having a smaller grid.  He was aruging to simply have fewer street rooms (The Wrong Side of Town, the Market, the Rich Folks Street, etc) which connect to one another in a logical and linear fashion.  And someone else suggested using some highly buff places code (code that altered your basic poses, so that while at a table, you automatically tabletalked, etc).

The later seems like more work than it really gains, but I waver on the former.  Because it's true when you play a scene that continues off across multiple stages- but it's not often that happens in the first place.

Oh, and speak of- I started to compile a list of Places in Atlanta (the chosen setting of Mage Nobilis, if it happens- Atlanta is an underused city, IMO, considering how rife with corruption it is ;)- if anyone can think of another useful Stage which is entirely missing, please, gimmie :)

Specific area Stages
Little Five Points (Atlanta's Village, home of artsy types and bohemians)
Georgia Tech (The ranked fourth hardest and 20th in quality of education! ;)
Lenox Mall (Just a fairly regular mall)
The Olympic Centienal Park (Just a nice little plaza, usally crowded)
The Chamber (Goth/Fetish club)
The Varsity (Food so greasy you die, and a fast food joint with a gift shop)

Generalized buildings/areas
Peachtree Street (If you live in Atlanta, you understand.  Peachtree street is everywhere)
Marta Station (Marta is Atlanta's subway system.  Except it's over ground and under used).
Piedmont Park (A nice big open grassy area)

Areas of dubious regular value, but high plot value
Georgia Dome (Football!  Woo!)
The Center for Disease Control (CDC) (Anthrax!  Woo!)
The Fox Theater (Musicals!  Woo!)
The Atlanta Zoo (Pandas!  Woo!)
Hartsfield Airport (Busiest airport in the world! Woo!)

Specifically NobliMage buildings needed
*Tradition Chantries
*Tecnocracy Controls
*Nodes

[contracycle]

NobliMage?  Knobbly Mage?  Does a magus staff have a knob on the end?

So anyway... I've just been playing Sea Dogs... v2 is due out later this year.  This is the latest incarnation of the "open world" piratical RPG-type games going way back to the C64.

As our machines get better and better, surely we can get away from text-based online environments.  The visuals in SD are so cool that the Exploration monkey is constantly being fed titbits; and if the island locations were more interesting and full of real people going about their business, then it would be even better.

So, can that be done?  If not why not?  Is the problem here not so much one of locations, but of movement?

[Drew Stevens]

Re: Graphics

First, the requirements for a graphical online game are a WHOLE LOT higher than for a text based.  Massively so.  A Mush, intended for between ten and thirty active players and maybe a hundred players total just doesn't need that sort of overhead- it's too expensive per capita.

That, and IMO, it's ultimately more limited.  A text based environment can be /anything/.  It's up to the writer to evoke what themes and moods you want to create.

OTOH, there is a certain class of player (an Explorer) who just enjoys wandering about a large grid.  I've never understood them, myself, and my game won't be catering to them in any case ;)

Re: NobliMage

Well, I reallyreallyreally like the ideas presented in White Wolf's Mage.  However, I had a few... hmm... difference of opinion as to how Magick should be run and used.  The result, after reading Nobilis, was to ditch the Sphere system and allow Mages to define their own Spheres, much like Nobilis Estates.  There's a couple other changes as well, but yeah.  It's NobliMage, and my baby.  The only real question would be if I continue to use WW's d10 system or switch over to my Potential measuring mechanic (talked about earlier on the Indie Design board)

[Clay]

Drew,

There is software out there which can create large areas with little effort.  That might be worth looking at for you.  A whole big area, like a forest or a bad neighborhood, esists as a single room with a lot of smaller virtual rooms in it.  I played with it a little bit and was able to confine monsters to these big areas (in my case, fearsome alley cats).

[Drew Stevens]

Re: Clay

Nonononononono.

I think, somewhere, I was misunderstood. :)

This is NOT an issue of db bloat.  This is an issue of what role do grid rooms play in an online environment- that of simulating a world or acting as a stage for the players.

I don't like large grids, because it's harder for players to find their way around them and to find one another, while serving little purpose in facilitating rp.  That's it.  Means of emulating large grids with single rooms, switching to a graphical environment, etcetc- I appreciate the ideas, but they're beyond tangential for what I'm trying to achieve.

[contracycle]

Ah.  Reading your initial post again, I see I was going in the opposite direction, contextualising the rooms.  But it prompts a question - what is the intent for the rooms, i.e. how are they to be used?  I guess I'm not sure what the problem of time linearity imposes from your perspective.

[Drew Stevens]

Okay.  If you've never played on a mush before, there's a concept called 'zone hopping'.  Basically, the idea is that it takes appreciable amounts of time to get from one place to another- far more than it takes to just type the command to walkfrom one room to another.

Ergo, you'll frequently page someone with 'Hey, want to start a scene?' and get 'Sorry- I'm too far away.' as the response.  Not as frequently as, say, 'I would never go there' or 'Where is that?', but even so...

Put more idealy, it's helping force grid rooms into their role as 'Stages' instead of 'places with an existance outside of the play'.  There's a reason I keep using plays as a metaphor- mushes only exist in people's heads, and only when the players are acting their parts.  

Er.  Does that help?  I'm not entirely sure if I'm using the right terminology to express what I'm trying to acomplish... :)