Aging

[Aaron]

I would definitely say demons wouldn't have to worry about aging!

Which sounds perfectly reasonable to me...Same could probably be said then about Legendary warriors who have vagaries & Sp..
But does that mean these guys have effectively got a higher Spell Pool than the numbers suggest?  Since they probably don't have to worry about aging, can put all their dice into casting spells and summoning mana with impunity?  
Now what about a demon that has been implanted in a person.  If they cast spells do you think that the host would age?
Aaron.

[Shadeling]

I would definitely say demons wouldn't have to worry about aging!

Which sounds perfectly reasonable to me...Same could probably be said then about Legendary warriors who have vagaries & Sp..
But does that mean these guys have effectively got a higher Spell Pool than the numbers suggest?  Since they probably don't have to worry about aging, can put all their dice into casting spells and summoning mana with impunity?  
Now what about a demon that has been implanted in a person.  If they cast spells do you think that the host would age?
Aaron.

Well the legendary warriors and demons don't have to set aside dice to resist aging, so yeah that would effectively mean more dice for casting. Gross!

I would rule, a demon implanted in a person would age the person...just like an implanted spell in a person or item ages said person or item.

[prophet118]

that was similiar to a post made a while back, about some guy putting his aging into other people.....gross as well

[Stephen]

That's exactly as I have always viewed it. The stresses on the body cause it to age, but you have not physcially experienced a swift passage of time. Thus fingernails, hair, growth of wrinkles and grey hairs etc occur, but the meal you just ate is still digesting in your stomach and a disease or virus you may have contracted has not developed any further in your body because time itself has not passed, you've aged independantly of time.

Fingernails, hair, wrinkles and grey hair are the products of cellular life processes, and the cellular life processes that produce these results are inherently linked to the biological processes of the body as a whole.  If you have "aged a month", your biosystem has effectively gone through one month's activity in the space of a few seconds -- and if the physical output of that accelerated activity is visible in growing hair and nails, then the physical input would logically be required.

What you need is an explanation of why magic accelerates some very few specific biosystems as if time has literally passed (the surface epidermis), and weakens others equivalent to that amount of entropy without actually increasing the speed of their biological processes -- which opens up all the questions as to why sorcerers don't starve/dehydrate to death after 1 month's aging.

(Unless, of course, the flow of magic itself is what sustains the body's energy input needs during the moment of spellcasting.  Which leads to an interesting question: if the entire biosystem "ages" as if it has passed through one or more months' time of living, would a wounded sorcerer effectively heal his wounds to some degree, because the natural process of healing is accelerated too?)

----SJ "they call me Mr. Twink" B

[Shadeling]

That's exactly as I have always viewed it. The stresses on the body cause it to age, but you have not physcially experienced a swift passage of time. Thus fingernails, hair, growth of wrinkles and grey hairs etc occur, but the meal you just ate is still digesting in your stomach and a disease or virus you may have contracted has not developed any further in your body because time itself has not passed, you've aged independantly of time.

Fingernails, hair, wrinkles and grey hair are the products of cellular life processes, and the cellular life processes that produce these results are inherently linked to the biological processes of the body as a whole.  If you have "aged a month", your biosystem has effectively gone through one month's activity in the space of a few seconds -- and if the physical output of that accelerated activity is visible in growing hair and nails, then the physical input would logically be required.

What you need is an explanation of why magic accelerates some very few specific biosystems as if time has literally passed (the surface epidermis), and weakens others equivalent to that amount of entropy without actually increasing the speed of their biological processes -- which opens up all the questions as to why sorcerers don't starve/dehydrate to death after 1 month's aging.

(Unless, of course, the flow of magic itself is what sustains the body's energy input needs during the moment of spellcasting.  Which leads to an interesting question: if the entire biosystem "ages" as if it has passed through one or more months' time of living, would a wounded sorcerer effectively heal his wounds to some degree, because the natural process of healing is accelerated too?)

----SJ "they call me Mr. Twink" B

Interesting point you have there, but I would think it wouldn't heal you. I think it wracks the body with pain-hence the knocking out part. I also think hunger/thirst aren't necessarily an issue here as it is a magical side-effect. The cells change and grow, but how you felt stays the same-you just look and feel older.

[Shreyas Sampat]

Quick - reanalysis!

Aging strictly only has the second effect you mentioned - weakening your body as if time had passed.

Somewhere deep in the mists of time, a wizard noticed this, and decided to do something about it - he wove a big ol' spell that made him look older whenever he "aged" from magic, with sophisticated techniques to match the visual aging to the magnitude of the magical damage.  But he messed up, and the spell affected *every* wizard, and lasts forever.

In other words, the fingernails, wrinkles, hair; those are just colour.  If you really want, you could just have the wrinkles and some osteoporosis, and leave the hair to reveal its newfound greyness / baldness as it grows.

[prophet118]

well i have a feeling that jake and ron had in their mind that screwing up on a magic effect would be a bad thing, but what other in game mods would be made to make the character feel that...

"ooh im weak.. oh well"... if you really want to do something else..

the knock out roll seems to be t just resist falling on your ass, it has nothing to do with actually resisting the effects of aging....so by in large it is a reponse roll, your body saying "nope we aint falling out, thats not gracefull"....obviously theres a tax on their system (the magus' body)

so let aging reflect losses to strength/health

would anyone tie that in as a viable secondary option?.......instead of aging, drop those two attributes for about 20-25 minutes?

[prophet118]

course what you do is this, look at the spells CTN, then ask the player where he wants those numbers applied to "CTN of 8, ok take away 8 points from among strength, health (and maybe endurance)"

[Shadeling]

I really think the knockout roll is how well your body is resisting this coming of months upon it. Knocking out is not the same as falling down...though you usually fall down when you go unconcious.

[prophet118]

well what i meant with "falling on your ass" is the same as "falling down drunk"..

obviously its not a roll to determine if you fall down, its a roll to try and stave off the horrdenous effects that knock you out if you age.

[Balbinus]

What you need is an explanation of why magic accelerates some very few specific biosystems as if time has literally passed (the surface epidermis), and weakens others equivalent to that amount of entropy without actually increasing the speed of their biological processes -- which opens up all the questions as to why sorcerers don't starve/dehydrate to death after 1 month's aging.

I think you're applying the scientific paradigm too much.  What is a biosystem?  This strikes me as similar to those who wonder about the effect of magic on molecular structures, what are molecular structures?

The laws of science as we understand them are unknown on Weyrth or it's Earth equivalents for starters.  They may not even apply.  To the extent they do apply Magic clearly contravenes them, it makes no sense within science as we understand it.

In mythology and folklore people could suddenly age in the manner the game presents.  They didn't then collapse from hunger or mystically heal wounds.  They simply grew older.  By its nature it is not a rational phenomenon.

I don't mean one can say, "oh, it's magic" and never explain anything or have any consistency.  But I am saying the rules of magic are not those of science and it is an error IMO to conflate the two.

Here's how I'll explain it.  God allots you a span of years by placing within the clay of your flesh a spark of his divine creative energy.  By usurping his privileges over the creation in arrogant fashion without proper protections you draw upon that spark and deplete it.  This reduces your span of allotted years and your physical aging is but an external symptom of the spiritual price you have paid for abrogating His creation.

Not a biosystem in sight.  No cellular life processes (again, what are they?)  Other explanations are possible, but I would argue in a magical system none of them should invoke biosystems or molecules or anything of that sort.  It's the quickest way to lose the sense of magic being magical and ultimately it will never make sense in those terms anyway.

[RN3G8 4E]

I may have something new to add to this discussion-
My first post on the forum everyone!

I have always liked the analogy of the star that burns brighter burns out fastest. So seem the magic-workers of TROS to me- brighter burning stars, which will burn out faster the more they use the gift.

I'm reminded of Willow for some reason just now- the old women sorceresses battling in the tower. Anyhow, I don't really have any experience playing as of yet, but this is how I see the magic/aging effect so far. Makes some very interesting dramatic questions as a character gets older and weaker as he uses the gift more and more. I see older characters on an adventure sacrificing themselves, knowing their own end is near anyway, to cast a powerful spell that will save their friends yet use up their remaining strength... I see younger characters falling in love then trying to forget that love as they realize their bodies have aged so much that their love would not recognize them or could not possibly return their love... I see a son afraid to go home, looking older than his father.

Maybe I'm way off base here, so if I am, let me know, oh great and experienced ones!

[Jake Norwood]

I see a son afraid to go home, looking older than his father.

That's just...cool. What a great idea...

Gotta use that somewhere.

Jake

[RN3G8 4E]

Jake- this is Matt, by the way. :)

How about this??? A wizard joins a mercenary group- maybe there are a few NPCs in the group. The old wizard seems to be sure to protect one of the middle-aged NPCs a lot. But at a crucial part of the adventure he is killed and the wizard cries or something and there it is revealed! The NPC was his father, although he didn't tell him. The wizard ran away from home when he was a boy because no one understood his powers.

There's a good story in there.

[Irmo]

I think you're applying the scientific paradigm too much.  What is a biosystem?  This strikes me as similar to those who wonder about the effect of magic on molecular structures, what are molecular structures?

Well, the magic system mentions them constantly, but that's not really the issue.

The laws of science as we understand them are unknown on Weyrth or it's Earth equivalents for starters.  They may not even apply.  To the extent they do apply Magic clearly contravenes them, it makes no sense within science as we understand it.

Again, the magic system repeatedly tries to remain within certain limits of science.

In mythology and folklore people could suddenly age in the manner the game presents.  They didn't then collapse from hunger or mystically heal wounds.  They simply grew older.  By its nature it is not a rational phenomenon.

But you can grow older without growing a beard. Women do so. People who shave do so ;)

Here's how I'll explain it.  God allots you a span of years by placing within the clay of your flesh a spark of his divine creative energy.  By usurping his privileges over the creation in arrogant fashion without proper protections you draw upon that spark and deplete it.  This reduces your span of allotted years and your physical aging is but an external symptom of the spiritual price you have paid for abrogating His creation.

Not a biosystem in sight.  No cellular life processes (again, what are they?)  Other explanations are possible, but I would argue in a magical system none of them should invoke biosystems or molecules or anything of that sort.  It's the quickest way to lose the sense of magic being magical and ultimately it will never make sense in those terms anyway.

Problem is that all of your explaining suggests AGING, but doesn't explain the development of beards and longer fingernails, which is more associated with a general passage of time than explicitly with physical aging.

Not the least, however, the uncoupling of biological processes means something else: That the hair and nails you grow are essentially matter generated out of nothing.