The Forge Forums Read-only Archives
The live Forge Forums
|
Articles
|
Reviews
Welcome,
Guest
. Please
login
or
register
.
July 02, 2022, 10:35:47 PM
1 Hour
1 Day
1 Week
1 Month
Forever
Login with username, password and session length
Forum changes:
Editing of posts has been turned off until further notice.
Search:
Advanced search
275647
Posts in
27717
Topics by
4285
Members Latest Member:
-
Jason DAngelo
Most online today:
82
- most online ever:
565
(October 17, 2020, 02:08:06 PM)
The Forge Archives
Archive
RPG Theory
Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker
Pages: [
1
]
2
« previous
next »
Author
Topic: Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker (Read 8860 times)
zaal
Member
Posts: 33
Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker
«
on:
January 21, 2003, 07:20:55 AM »
Ron says:
Quote
It's very, very hard to break out of D&D Fantasy assumptions for many people, and the first step, I think, is to generate the idea that protagonism (for any GNS mode) can mean more than energy and ego.
Would you mind elaborating on this? What else can protagonism mean? I probably already know, but can't articulate it. And, if I don't know, I want to find out!
Jon
Logged
Jack Spencer Jr
Guest
Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker
«
Reply #1 on:
January 21, 2003, 07:51:03 AM »
I found a thread
here
and
here
that looks promising. If not, just use the search feature.
Logged
Ron Edwards
Global Moderator
Member
Posts: 16490
Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker
«
Reply #2 on:
January 21, 2003, 07:52:03 AM »
Hi there,
This reply is probably going to generate multiple howls of debate, so I offer it up as a sacrificial lamb with large, long-lashed eyes. [Boy, this religion thing is getting out of hand; it's invading my metaphors.]
I'll start by saying that "energy and ego" are probably two parts of the three-part necessary foundation for protagonism, with the third part being the shared, social, and
invested
attention toward the character from the gaming group as a whole. That third part is what I'll concentrate on below, as it's "what's missing" both from the Heartbreakers and frankly, from a hell of a lot of role-playing and RPG texts in general.
Therefore the following features are not to be understood as personal, internal, isolated things, but rather as things that (a) are experienced, (b) are shared, and (c) receive feedback from others.
I also want to point out that none of these are definitional for the modes. I'm talking about highly-protagonized play within each one.
GAMIST PLAY
Protagonists afford the player a venue for two things: the player's own pluck and strategy.
NARRATIVIST PLAY
Protagonists afford the player a venue for cathartic Premise-answering, which is to say, the production of Theme.
SIMULATIONIST PLAY
Protagonists afford the player ... protagonists. Which is to say, the characters and what happen to them are consistent with the overall Explorative aims of play.
In all of the above, the GM should be considered a co-player with the primary player, relative to the character. I can't imagine a form of functional GMing which fails to reinforce one or some version of these.
Best,
Ron
Logged
zaal
Member
Posts: 33
Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker
«
Reply #3 on:
January 21, 2003, 08:07:22 AM »
Quote from: Jack Spencer Jr
I found a thread
here
and
here
that looks promising. If not, just use the search feature.
Ack! I'll have to remember to search next time, to prevent topic repetition. :P
Jon
Logged
Paul Czege
Acts of Evil Playtesters
Member
Posts: 2341
Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker
«
Reply #4 on:
January 21, 2003, 08:24:56 AM »
Hey Jon,
The dissenting opinion is that the whole theory jumped the shark once Ron started extending the definitions of premise and protagonism to simulationism and gamism.
Paul
Logged
My Life with Master
knows codependence.
And if you're doing anything with your
Acts of Evil
ashcan license
, of course I'm curious and would love to hear about your plans
Ron Edwards
Global Moderator
Member
Posts: 16490
Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker
«
Reply #5 on:
January 21, 2003, 10:02:09 AM »
Sigh ... and it so happens that "Ron" is reconsidering the Premise side of that particular debate very seriously. "Creative agenda" seems to be a perfectly good term for what I was trying to do with expanding "premise," and that or equivalent terms are what we tend to use during discussions.
I suspect that some folks would balk at restricting the term "protagonist" to Narrativist play.
Best,
Ron
Logged
Valamir
Member
Posts: 5574
Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker
«
Reply #6 on:
January 21, 2003, 10:17:48 AM »
I don't know.
All three GNS modes have a "creative agenda". For N this takes the form of a Premise.
All three GNS modes have a "main character(s)". For N this takes the form of a Protagonist.
Seems to make sense.
How valid would it be to refer to the "main character" of S as taking the form of an Avatar...
Logged
Ralph Mazza
Universalis: The Game of Unlimited Stories
Ron Edwards
Global Moderator
Member
Posts: 16490
Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker
«
Reply #7 on:
January 21, 2003, 10:20:10 AM »
Hi Ralph,
That's what I was trying to say -
all
role-playing requires a participant to have a creative agenda. I tried to use "premise" for this in my essay and it caused multiple confusions. I'm tending to agree with you that the term should be restricted (back) to its Narrativist application.
Best,
Ron
Logged
Valamir
Member
Posts: 5574
Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker
«
Reply #8 on:
January 21, 2003, 10:25:41 AM »
Yeah. The "I don't know" was meant to refer to people balking at restricting protagonist, by demonstrating that it actually makes sense.
I'm with ya.
Logged
Ralph Mazza
Universalis: The Game of Unlimited Stories
zaal
Member
Posts: 33
Apology
«
Reply #9 on:
January 21, 2003, 06:13:58 PM »
All,
I feel the need to apologize for introducing this thread. When I posted my message, I thought I had an idea of what being a protagonist was but now I'm not so sure. I'll continue sifting through some of the protagonism posts and try to wrap my mind around the term and its application in gaming.
So while people can continue discussing the implications of Ron's reply to me, I'm going to renege on any claim to "ownership" I might have to this thread. Frankly, I don't really know what I'm talking about :) .
Jon
Logged
Ron Edwards
Global Moderator
Member
Posts: 16490
Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker
«
Reply #10 on:
January 22, 2003, 06:55:36 AM »
Hello,
While Jon sifts and muses, we continue ...
Ralph, although we are in accord regarding "premise," or rather, I have come to agree with your criticisms and am offering the "creative agenda" for the general use-term, I think you're missing my take on the term "protagonist."
At this point, I'm inclined to use the term across all the GNS modes. I imagine this will begin some debate ...
Best,
Ron
Logged
Paul Czege
Acts of Evil Playtesters
Member
Posts: 2341
Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker
«
Reply #11 on:
January 22, 2003, 10:22:50 AM »
Hey Ron,
At this point, I'm inclined to use the term across all the GNS modes.
I think you're just doing this to get people to argue against it, so you can change your mind and then be able to say your resulting use of the term as specific to narrativism is a response to input. Fine...
Here's the entry on protagonism from
A Handbook to Literature
, by C. Hugh Holman and William Harmon:
"Protagonist: The chief character in a play, story, or film. The word protagonist was originally applied to the 'first' actor in early Greek drama. The actor was added to the chorus and was its leader; hence, the continuing meaning of protagonist as the 'first' or chief player in drama. In Greek drama an agon is a context. The protagonist, the chief character, and the antagonist, the second most important character, are the contenders in the agon. The protagonist is the leading figure both in terms of importance in the play and
in terms of ability to enlist our interest and sympathy
, whether the cause is heroic or ignoble...."
That's my underlining. So, what we're talking about is a character whose significance is built upon provoking emotional and intellectual investment in his endeavors and his struggle with antagonistic forces. Now let's quote you:
..."energy and ego" are probably two parts of the three-part necessary foundation for protagonism, with the third part being the shared, social, and invested attention toward the character from the gaming group as a whole. That third part is what I'll concentrate on below....
GAMIST PLAY
Protagonists afford the player a venue for two things: the player's own pluck and strategy.
NARRATIVIST PLAY
Protagonists afford the player a venue for cathartic Premise-answering, which is to say, the production of Theme.
SIMULATIONIST PLAY
Protagonists afford the player ... protagonists. Which is to say, the characters and what happen to them are consistent with the overall Explorative aims of play.
So, answer for me the following:
1. Say I'm sitting across the table from a hypothetical gamist "protagonist," and for the sake of argument that I'm emotionally and intellectually invested in the character's capacity for pluck and strategy. How is that a different thing for me than being responsive as a player to the energy and ego of the other player?
2. Say I'm sitting across the table from a hypothetical simulationist "protagonist," and for the sake of argument that I'm emotionally and intellectually invested in the explorations of that character. What kinds of things could occur to blow my emotional and intellectual investment in that character's explorations that wouldn't at the same time blow my own emotional and intellectual investment in the whole game?
Paul
Logged
My Life with Master
knows codependence.
And if you're doing anything with your
Acts of Evil
ashcan license
, of course I'm curious and would love to hear about your plans
contracycle
Member
Posts: 2807
Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker
«
Reply #12 on:
January 22, 2003, 10:50:39 AM »
Quote from: Paul Czege
So, answer for me the following:
1. Say I'm sitting across the table from a hypothetical gamist "protagonist," and for the sake of argument that I'm emotionally and intellectually invested in the character's capacity for pluck and strategy. How is that a different thing for me than being responsive as a player to the energy and ego of the other player?
2. Say I'm sitting across the table from a hypothetical simulationist "protagonist," and for the sake of argument that I'm emotionally and intellectually invested in the explorations of that character. What kinds of things could occur to blow my emotional and intellectual investment in that character's explorations that wouldn't at the same time blow my own emotional and intellectual investment in the whole game?
Question: surely this function of protagonism is only relevant to the owning player? At least, I have been thinking of the protagonism of a character as important only inasmuch as it relates to that player; if Bobs character whiffs it doesn't deprotagonise my character, I feel.
Hence, I feel, other players wil always engage with their colleagues energy and ego; but the player must engage with their fictional prersona through protagonism.
Logged
Impeach the bomber boys:
www.impeachblair.org
www.impeachbush.org
"He who loves practice without theory is like the sailor who boards ship without a rudder and compass and never knows where he may cast."
- Leonardo da Vinci
Marco
Member
Posts: 1741
Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker
«
Reply #13 on:
January 22, 2003, 11:06:15 AM »
Quote from: Paul Czege
Hey Jon,
The dissenting opinion is that the whole theory jumped the shark once Ron started extending the definitions of premise and protagonism to simulationism and gamism.
Paul
On the other hand, that was where I thought it started working. This may not be a good sign to a lot of people.
-Marco
Logged
---------------------------------------------
JAGS (Just Another Gaming System)
a free, high-quality, universal system at:
http://www.jagsrpg.org
Just Released: JAGS Wonderland
John Kim
Member
Posts: 1805
Son of Fantasy Heartbreaker
«
Reply #14 on:
January 22, 2003, 12:40:04 PM »
OK,
I'm relatively new here, and I'm rather confused by the whole "protagonism" issue -- especially because of its murky relationship with the protagonist in literary theory.
Now, I have had a number of PCs who I would say were not protagonists -- usually deliberately so. For example, I conceived of my character Harkel as a foil (i.e. a supporting role) because he was dramatically static, lacking catharsis or conflict. We were playing in a campaign where all of the PCs were immortals, which was done in episodes which ranged back and forth over centuries. I came up with the idea of a character who dealt with immortality by closing himself off, by refusing to engage in human relations. Is he still a "protagonist" in the sense considered here?
One of the features of most RPGs is that they are ensemble pieces rather than having traditional protagonists. PCs will vary in how "protagonist-like" they are. Or at least, that's how I see it.
Am I missing something?
Logged
- John
Pages: [
1
]
2
« previous
next »
Jump to:
Please select a destination:
-----------------------------
Welcome to the Archives
-----------------------------
=> Welcome to the Archives
-----------------------------
General Forge Forums
-----------------------------
=> First Thoughts
=> Playtesting
=> Endeavor
=> Actual Play
=> Publishing
=> Connections
=> Conventions
=> Site Discussion
-----------------------------
Archive
-----------------------------
=> RPG Theory
=> GNS Model Discussion
=> Indie Game Design
-----------------------------
Independent Game Forums
-----------------------------
=> Adept Press
=> Arkenstone Publishing
=> Beyond the Wire Productions
=> Black and Green Games
=> Bully Pulpit Games
=> Dark Omen Games
=> Dog Eared Designs
=> Eric J. Boyd Designs
=> Errant Knight Games
=> Galileo Games
=> glyphpress
=> Green Fairy Games
=> Half Meme Press
=> Incarnadine Press
=> lumpley games
=> Muse of Fire Games
=> ndp design
=> Night Sky Games
=> one.seven design
=> Robert Bohl Games
=> Stone Baby Games
=> These Are Our Games
=> Twisted Confessions
=> Universalis
=> Wild Hunt Studios
-----------------------------
Inactive Forums
-----------------------------
=> My Life With Master Playtest
=> Adamant Entertainment
=> Bob Goat Press
=> Burning Wheel
=> Cartoon Action Hour
=> Chimera Creative
=> CRN Games
=> Destroy All Games
=> Evilhat Productions
=> HeroQuest
=> Key 20 Publishing
=> Memento-Mori Theatricks
=> Mystic Ages Online
=> Orbit
=> Scattershot
=> Seraphim Guard
=> Wicked Press
=> Review Discussion
=> XIG Games
=> SimplePhrase Press
=> The Riddle of Steel
=> Random Order Creations
=> Forge Birthday Forum