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Started by M. J. Young, January 06, 2003, 10:28:18 PM
Quote from: contracycleQuote from: simon_hibbsI can't see how enabling multiple valid religious philosophies in a game reduces freedom, ...because their "validities" are mutually exclusive;You still haven't demonstrated this, only asserted it.;
Quote from: simon_hibbsI can't see how enabling multiple valid religious philosophies in a game reduces freedom,
QuoteI didn't need to demonstrate it, greyorm demonstrated it for me. We would present a scenario in which myth was to be taken as Literally True, but in actual resolution, the GM-behaviour was to declare it symbolic.
QuoteThus, a character identity premised on the mythology being true had been violated; that character cannot carry out what they were selected by the player to carry out.
QuoteThe myth has been falsified in actual play at the table. That has appeared in every sample to date.
QuoteQuoteHow on earth you can accept that a fantasy world might have 'The Law of Similarity' as a cosmic law, and yet deny that similarities inmythical alegory with the real world can give power? This seems to me to be elementary.I don't; I merely require that the game ASSERT that the Law of Similarity IS a cosmic law and is empowered in manner X. A game which does not make such an assertion gives me no reason to think that Law of Similarity either exists in the game world or is empowered in the game world.
QuoteHow on earth you can accept that a fantasy world might have 'The Law of Similarity' as a cosmic law, and yet deny that similarities inmythical alegory with the real world can give power? This seems to me to be elementary.
QuoteThe Law of Similarity per se does not explain effect. It merely explains, more or less, why human beings FALSELY attribute cause and effect to things that are only superficially similar. It is an argument to anthropology, not an argument to game design.
QuoteSo your argument is to ignore what the GM and game designer have said about the nature of the world, and assert yourselves how it has to work according to your own rules, then use that in your proof?
QuoteAre we talking baout the beliefs of a character in the game world, or your assertions about what can't be true in my game world?
QuoteNot in mine. You have refused to debate the example of a game world in which I have determined (as game designer) the way the world works, instead asserting that it _has_ to work the way you say. Why?
QuoteFalsely perhaps in our world (that's a seperate issue), but not necesserily falsely in a fantasy world where the game designer states that it is the case, or more generaly that the laws of magic accepted by magicians and religious philosophers in the real world operate. Again, you refuse to allow me as game designer to choose the operating principles of my game world, and refuse to consider situations in that game world based on those principles. Why?
Quote from: SimonThe issue is if is possible to have multiple religions in a game world that are contradictory yet equaly true.
Quote from: wfreitagI should also point out that in a sufficiently magic-rich world, just about everything becomes unfalsifiable. Yes, magic allows more tests to be made (such as flying into the sky to examine the vault of the sky for hoofprints or dung beetle tracks) but it also provides alternative unfalsifiable explanations for anything that is perceived.
Quote from: contracycleQuoteSo your argument is to ignore what the GM and game designer have said about the nature of the world, and assert yourselves how it has to work according to your own rules, then use that in your proof? Eh? The game designer said, "in this game, mythology is true". That is the topic for discussion, I understand, true mythologies.
QuoteQuoteAre we talking about the beliefs of a character in the game world, or your assertions about what can't be true in my game world? The character is a vehicle for the player; character beliefs are a large part of the data that the player will be processing to solve problems, take actions etc. Therefore, character beliefs feed back to player action. It is the player I have to persuade, not the character - but if the characters beliefs are prima facie insane, then players have a tough job identifying with characters.
QuoteAre we talking about the beliefs of a character in the game world, or your assertions about what can't be true in my game world?
Quote from: simon_hibbsBut you will only accept your own definition of true, i.e. physicaly true however you have already accepted yourself that this is not necessery when you accepted the validity of the Law of Similarity.
QuoteWho said anything about insane characters? In the real world people of different religions are capable of accepting the validity of each other´s beliefs.
QuoteTherefore I don´t see what´s so crazy about positing a fantasy world in which that is also true. However asserting that more than one belief can be true, according to the cosmic laws of that universe, doesn´t mean that all beliefs must be true. If they don´t comply with our chosen cosmic laws for that universe (in this case ther Law of Similarity), then of course they´re not true.